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re: Dennis Prager on why poverty does NOT cause crime

Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:27 pm to
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
104889 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:27 pm to
quote:

I used to think this and obviously I think every citizen should engage in productive labor...but the American Dream as sold to generations past is largely a myth at this point. What used to be "stair step" jobs to better jobs really are just truly dead-end now.


Show me someone who's doing ANY job exceptionally for 5 years or more and not getting other opportunities.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:27 pm to
quote:

It's about as good a means as I can think of to opening the door to many.


you really think so?

for instance, I think getting a job at mcdonalds, while admirable and a good starting point, will not yield an opportunity for the majority of people. Even if you get promoted, you won't be making very much money and they basically expect you to quit.

sure its better than waiting for life to hand you everything but its not really an opportunity for most.
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
54027 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:28 pm to
quote:

and the reality is, education is no longer a get out of poor card free.


Since when?

And you don't have to be a genius to have opportunities. The fallacy that there is a lack of opportunity for jobs out there is laughable.

You can't get into college? Learn a trade. Entry level pipefitter helpers are making $20/hour.

What opportunity is lacking?
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
104889 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:29 pm to
quote:

sure its better than waiting for life to hand you everything but its not really an opportunity for most.


Certainly not for those with the sort of defeatist attitude you allude to above going in.

I assure you, an exceptional worker at McDonalds will be afforded many more opportunities than one who simply tells themselves it's a dead end job and does little more than show up every day.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 1:31 pm
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

but the American Dream as sold to generations past is largely a myth at this point. What used to be "stair step" jobs to better jobs really are just truly dead-end now.

that's called the progress of an advancing society, which i posted about earlier in this thread

to put it harshly: adapt or die

the rejection of education (again, across many races) is going to just further accelerate the lower classes slide to irrelevance in society (outside of their dependency on government and crime)

quote:

Go take a look at real earnings over the past few decades and you will see that there has been a real stagnation for the rising class.

because, as i posted earlier in this thread, primary and secondary industries are becoming much more efficient

this makes simple things like education magnitudes more important, and the costs of rejecting education are worse today
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

Even just in the late 80's, I'm sure you're aware of drug sentencing laws that were passed re crack which very clearly were done with the intent of incarcerating large numbers of blacks vs whites and their cocaine habits.


I'm against the War on Drugs(tm) - the mental model used for crack was heroin, while the mental model for powder cocaine was upper middle class marijuana - having said that, there was a rational relationship to the violence associated with the activity.

Upper middle class doctors and lawyers (and Hollywood and music types, powder cocaine's universe) were not the risk for violence that, say, heroin trafficking and fights over drug turf. It was when large, wholesale distribution of cocaine that became associated with violence that at least the trafficking was targeted most severely by the federal authorities (i.e. Miami during the 1980s).

On the other hand, you have a point - cocaine is cocaine and the effect of treating crack like heroin resulted, particularly at the street dealer level and the megapossession ("with intent") in disparate treatment between powder cocaine users/dealers and crack user/dealers.

My counterpoint to that is that crystal meth is definitely following the crack model - despite a very high ratio of white dealers/users (although blacks have embraced the drug, to a certain degree, as a stimulant to replace crack, just as white stimulant users gravitated to crack during the latter decade of its heyday).

So, I believe it is more of a class targeting, with race as a reverse proxy in the case of cocaine (just my $0.02).

quote:

That is an incredibly glib/facile way of stating it


What I said was absolutely accurate and fair. I CAN'T go back in time - if I could, I'd be ruler of the Universe.

quote:

Let's call it what it actually was: state-sponsored terror against an entire group of citizens.


Meh. There was no genocide. There was no extermination. There wasn't even ethnic cleansing (although barriers were fairly well maintained) - it was an apartheid, legal, instutional, no question. It was barbaric. But the authorities tried actively to root out the terror elements and there was steady progress through much of the 20th Century towards Civil Rights reform.

Was it perfect? No. Am I proud of the way my country handled race relations during the entire period in question? No. Am I going to sit around and agonize about shite I didn't participate in and cannot change? No.

Do I want to talk about solutions going forward? Yes. Do you? I'm not certain. It seems that you and others want to dwell on festering wounds, pick at scabs and put off the healing process as long as possible on principle.

Hopefully, I'm wrong about that.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 1:32 pm
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
54027 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:32 pm to
quote:

I think getting a job at mcdonalds, while admirable and a good starting point, will not yield an opportunity for the majority of people.


That's why it is a no skill minimum wage job. No one is forcing you to work at McDonalds.

There are plenty other opportunities for careers other than McDonalds. Construction industry is booming right now. Learn to be a welder and you can make $40/hour. Become a carpenter's helper and you can start out at $15-20/hour.

Go work in a kitchen. Start out washing dishes. Everyone in a kitchen starts out washing dishes. Work your way up. Makes some money save it, then put yourself through culinary school.
Posted by GoBigOrange86
Meine sich're Zuflucht
Member since Jun 2008
14488 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:32 pm to
I wish conservatives would abandon their commonly-held trope that people could succeed if they would only try really hard. That's going to work for some people in some situations...but the problem isn't the PEOPLE. The problem is the SYSTEM. It's a system that ENCOURAGES dependence, poverty, and hopelessness -- not by design, but that's what happens.

Poor people are not all "lazy." That's a bullshite argument. Some of them are, but many are simply behaving rationally in terms of maximizing what they have. They are avoiding the risky behavior of taking chances that could potentially yield great success or, alternatively, great failure. Some people will take these risks, and that's fine. But you're not going to get people to do so en masse by telling them to just work harder -- the system is the problem. Change the institution, and people will change their calculations.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:33 pm to
quote:

Even if you get promoted, you won't be making very much money and they basically expect you to quit.

there are some stunning stats about mcdonalds (and walmart, for that matter) hiring managers who started at low-levels with the company
Posted by Homesick Tiger
Greenbrier, AR
Member since Nov 2006
54765 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:33 pm to
quote:

You can't get into college? Learn a trade.


Yep. When I retired a couple of years ago from the railroad, there were guys making over a hundred grand a year riding trains. Qualifications - high school diploma.
Posted by Choctaw
Pumpin' Sunshine
Member since Jul 2007
77774 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:36 pm to
quote:

for instance, I think getting a job at mcdonalds, while admirable and a good starting point, will not yield an opportunity for the majority of people. Even if you get promoted, you won't be making very much money and they basically expect you to quit.


yeah....this isn't true at all
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:37 pm to
quote:

this makes simple things like education magnitudes more important, and the costs of rejecting education are worse today


One of the ugly aspects of social darwinism is that the margin of error is so small, particularly in today's environment.

A whole slew of good decisions can be overwhelmed by a single terrible one. The opposite is not true - i.e. 1 great decision is going to have a much tougher time overwhelming a lifetime of bad ones.

So, you have to be balancing risk reward even in small things, unfortunately. Most people live in the now, and, therefore, do not consider planning for the future rewarding at all, esepcially if they have neither been raised to think that way nor seen it work in practice.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 1:38 pm
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:38 pm to
quote:

I assure you, an exceptional worker at McDonalds will be afforded many more opportunities than one who simply tells themselves it's a dead end job and does little more than show up every day.


I definitely would agree but the reality is the opportunities are likely going to just be more of the same. Not a real chance to get ahead.
quote:

there are some stunning stats about mcdonalds (and walmart, for that matter) hiring managers who started at low-levels with the company

yes there are. And I have admiration for them, but those are the exception not the rule. Most people work at mcdonalds or wal-mart for very short periods of time b.c the job fricking sucks.

What I would say is that most people on this board if they were put in a situation where they were struck to zero could make a stunning comeback. But what you have to realize is everyone is not you. Some people are stupid. Some people are lazy. Some people are stupid and lazy. Some people had bad role models and have no idea what hard work can yield.

Those people see lack of opportunity, maybe wrongfully so, but they are the ones that turn to crime. It appears to be an easier path to getting ahead.
Posted by 90proofprofessional
Member since Mar 2004
24445 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:38 pm to
quote:

I diskike these arguments

i seent it
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:41 pm to
quote:

i seent it


His autocorrect is a virulent antisemite.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:41 pm to
i spent my first night being social with friends on a weekday in forever out last night. some of my friends are getting into tehir first investment plan thing. i have no part of it, but i was really happy to see them trying something. i did have to tell them that even if it doesn't work out, they'll learn a great deal, blah blah

i'm lucky that my big learning experience failure was an international sports website that i lost only like a grand (and time). lesson learned (don't attempt to start a website with 14 investors from various countries solely b/c you know 1/3 of them from the internet)
Posted by Cosmo
glassman's guest house
Member since Oct 2003
123130 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:44 pm to
Wow slow, thought you were smarter than that
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:44 pm to
quote:

But what you have to realize is everyone is not you. Some people are stupid. Some people are lazy. Some people are stupid and lazy. Some people had bad role models and have no idea what hard work can yield.

i fully understand this
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:44 pm to
quote:

i'm lucky that my big learning experience failure was an international sports website that i lost only like a grand (and time). lesson learned (don't attempt to start a website with 14 investors from various countries solely b/c you know 1/3 of them from the internet)


What doesn't kill you makes you stronger (except tuberculosis.)

Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
435758 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 1:46 pm to
quote:

Wow slow, thought you were smarter than that

it was only a grand. it was basically what bleacher report became. the idea wasn't bad

plus it played on my ego. i was to be the star writer
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