- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
1
Posted on 11/12/18 at 10:43 pm to davidlsu
2 subs, one for left and one for right, is optimal. It actually solves some of the problems that having only one sub creates. It is actually easier to dial in 2 subs using software and its internal DSP....
...in my experience.
...in my experience.
This post was edited on 11/12/18 at 10:59 pm
Posted on 11/12/18 at 11:23 pm to Marco Esquandolas
Interesting, gives me something to think about. Music direct giving me a really good deal compared to others
Posted on 11/14/18 at 10:19 pm to Marco Esquandolas
Gonna disagree. The math to having two subs says that you never place them on the same wall if that’s what you mean by left and right. Two subs on the same wall is a standing wave nightmare waiting to happen.
Posted on 11/15/18 at 12:05 am to VABuckeye
VABuckeye—I used to think that too...then about six months ago I started researching and reading everything I could get hold of regarding the world of “the low end” and subwoofers. I have been on a “low note crusade” the last 6 months, talking with sub designers, engineers, fellow audiophiles, and numerous dealers that have been around for a long time.
Just about every fellow audio guru I know that has the space, an understanding wife, and available funds, is using dual subs..it got me thinking.
The output from one sub can be used to null or enhance waves from the other, actually giving a bit more control of the low end in a room. I had a single sub in here, and had more problems than a Chinese math book.
I met with (and listened to their rigs) a bunch of the audio guys in the New Orlean’s group who all told me to get a second sub...not convinced, I called the engineer at JL Audio and spoke with him at length (although I wasn’t using JL Audio, their numerous papers on subs and room placement are quite convincing...and the folks at JL Audio know what the hell they are talking about)—his response was the same—get a second sub.
I then got on the phone with the engineer at SVS—same response (and with a lengthy explanation as to why).
Read up on Duke LeJeune and his “Swarm” sub system (4 subs placed around the room)—quite compelling.
I used to think it was overkill to have more than one (or any sub for that matter—I never used them until recently)—but I gotta say, after adding a second sub and spending a few months getting it dialed in, most of the issues I was having using a single sub are now subdued.
I am still, however, having a timing issue (subs lag behind the mains a few milliseconds), and that can be corrected in one of two ways...either move the subs out about 4 feet in front of the main speakers and physically time align them (aestheticly, this is not gonna happen in my room), or attack the issue electronically by running the main amps/speakers through a DSP and delaying them a few milliseconds. I can slow down the mains to get in time with the subs, but can’t speed up the subs to get in time with the mains (if that makes sense—I can’t make the sound come out of the subs before the signal gets there).
Dig deep on JL Audio’s site and you will find a long, but worthwhile read on number of subs and their placement (both horizontal and vertical). If I can find the link to it I will link it in a bit.
Now, I did use a sound analyzer software program and had microphones set up around the room countless times over a 4 month period to get to where I am now (nothing worthwhile is easy!)...but the difference between one sub and two, in my room, is remarkable.
I will say, it wasn’t easy getting to where it is now...actually, it was quite frustrating—like trying to balance on a unicycle on top of a beach ball. When an adjustment was made to one sub to correct a certain frequency peak, it would often times create a valley in another frequency that was perfect before said adjustment (fix one problem, but cause a new one, change phase angle on one sub, and a new peak pops up at a frequency that was fine before—fix that and now phase is off again—repeat again and again).
Eventually, I got it...but it took lots of patience, and a pen and notebook to write down numbers and what happened to certain frequencies when a certain adjustment was made.
I am actually contemplating getting 2 more SVS SB-16 for the sides...it is not to get “more bass” (I have it in spades now)—but to use the additional 2 subs as vehicles to further adjust frequency peaks and valleys and mesh with the first 2 subs and the 11” woofers in the Focal Utopias.
Two years ago I would have never conceived of this idea of multiple subs, but after actually having them in house for about 8 months now and really spending a good deal of time experimenting with just about every parameter and adjustment afforded to me by the onboard DSP and analyzing software, I have come to learn a good bit about bass wave behavior and how to either manipulate it, or work with or around it, as it pertains to the room.
Edit: LINK to JL Audio article, which is an excerpt from a much longer, more detailed analysis from Barry Ober, a.k.a. “The Sound Doctor”
Just about every fellow audio guru I know that has the space, an understanding wife, and available funds, is using dual subs..it got me thinking.
The output from one sub can be used to null or enhance waves from the other, actually giving a bit more control of the low end in a room. I had a single sub in here, and had more problems than a Chinese math book.
I met with (and listened to their rigs) a bunch of the audio guys in the New Orlean’s group who all told me to get a second sub...not convinced, I called the engineer at JL Audio and spoke with him at length (although I wasn’t using JL Audio, their numerous papers on subs and room placement are quite convincing...and the folks at JL Audio know what the hell they are talking about)—his response was the same—get a second sub.
I then got on the phone with the engineer at SVS—same response (and with a lengthy explanation as to why).
Read up on Duke LeJeune and his “Swarm” sub system (4 subs placed around the room)—quite compelling.
I used to think it was overkill to have more than one (or any sub for that matter—I never used them until recently)—but I gotta say, after adding a second sub and spending a few months getting it dialed in, most of the issues I was having using a single sub are now subdued.
I am still, however, having a timing issue (subs lag behind the mains a few milliseconds), and that can be corrected in one of two ways...either move the subs out about 4 feet in front of the main speakers and physically time align them (aestheticly, this is not gonna happen in my room), or attack the issue electronically by running the main amps/speakers through a DSP and delaying them a few milliseconds. I can slow down the mains to get in time with the subs, but can’t speed up the subs to get in time with the mains (if that makes sense—I can’t make the sound come out of the subs before the signal gets there).
Dig deep on JL Audio’s site and you will find a long, but worthwhile read on number of subs and their placement (both horizontal and vertical). If I can find the link to it I will link it in a bit.
Now, I did use a sound analyzer software program and had microphones set up around the room countless times over a 4 month period to get to where I am now (nothing worthwhile is easy!)...but the difference between one sub and two, in my room, is remarkable.
I will say, it wasn’t easy getting to where it is now...actually, it was quite frustrating—like trying to balance on a unicycle on top of a beach ball. When an adjustment was made to one sub to correct a certain frequency peak, it would often times create a valley in another frequency that was perfect before said adjustment (fix one problem, but cause a new one, change phase angle on one sub, and a new peak pops up at a frequency that was fine before—fix that and now phase is off again—repeat again and again).
Eventually, I got it...but it took lots of patience, and a pen and notebook to write down numbers and what happened to certain frequencies when a certain adjustment was made.
I am actually contemplating getting 2 more SVS SB-16 for the sides...it is not to get “more bass” (I have it in spades now)—but to use the additional 2 subs as vehicles to further adjust frequency peaks and valleys and mesh with the first 2 subs and the 11” woofers in the Focal Utopias.
Two years ago I would have never conceived of this idea of multiple subs, but after actually having them in house for about 8 months now and really spending a good deal of time experimenting with just about every parameter and adjustment afforded to me by the onboard DSP and analyzing software, I have come to learn a good bit about bass wave behavior and how to either manipulate it, or work with or around it, as it pertains to the room.
Edit: LINK to JL Audio article, which is an excerpt from a much longer, more detailed analysis from Barry Ober, a.k.a. “The Sound Doctor”
This post was edited on 11/15/18 at 12:15 am
Posted on 11/15/18 at 7:16 am to Marco Esquandolas
Good stuff, Marco. Thanks. I'll look into it.
Posted on 11/15/18 at 11:24 am to Marco Esquandolas
Any recommendations on a beginner audio system to connect both my record player and tv? I'm looking at a budget of about $400 right now. Should I look at a Yamaha or Pioneer home theater system and then upgrade speakers in time or should I start with a receiver and a couple speakers and slowly build from there?
Any recommendations on where to buy, brands to look at, etc.. I work for local government so while I want a quality set-up money is definitely a factor. Thanks for any advice!
Any recommendations on where to buy, brands to look at, etc.. I work for local government so while I want a quality set-up money is definitely a factor. Thanks for any advice!
Posted on 11/15/18 at 5:46 pm to VABuckeye
VABuckeye—-you are one of the ones on here that has a firm grasp of audio, sound, and gear, which is why I wrote a long response explaining my take on it.
It took me 30 years of evolving systems before I ever used a sub in any 2 channel listening because I could never get a sub to seamlessly blend with the mains...and I tried a few times over the years. In fact, the only reason I finally added a sub is because I am now running a 5.1 “theater” in the audio room. However, the process of constantly switching the sub on and off when moving back and forth from 5.1 to 2.0 within a complex 2 channel/5.1 system using theater bypass and Control4 was a cumbersome PITA—so I decided to just run 2.1 audio rather than 2.0 audio. Thus began my sub journey which led to now.
With modern technological advancements, development of end user analytical software (sound/room acoustic analyzers), and the advent of digital signal processing, the marriage and blending of sub and main speakers has gotten a good bit easier in the past decade.
You may want to try experimenting with subwoofer DSP if you haven’t done so—this stuff really works!
Give the idea of a second sub a test drive if you can...SVS offers a 60 day in-home trial—if it isn’t for you after experimenting, you are only out $40 for shipping it back to them. But if it does happen to work out, you just may take your listening to a new level.
Also, SVS announced just yesterday a new 3000 series sub (13” driver). It has all the DSP and control via app like the 4000 series and 16 series, but at a little lower price point (the actual driver is not as massive as it’s larger brothers)...I believe they are $1200 delivered.
It took me 30 years of evolving systems before I ever used a sub in any 2 channel listening because I could never get a sub to seamlessly blend with the mains...and I tried a few times over the years. In fact, the only reason I finally added a sub is because I am now running a 5.1 “theater” in the audio room. However, the process of constantly switching the sub on and off when moving back and forth from 5.1 to 2.0 within a complex 2 channel/5.1 system using theater bypass and Control4 was a cumbersome PITA—so I decided to just run 2.1 audio rather than 2.0 audio. Thus began my sub journey which led to now.
With modern technological advancements, development of end user analytical software (sound/room acoustic analyzers), and the advent of digital signal processing, the marriage and blending of sub and main speakers has gotten a good bit easier in the past decade.
You may want to try experimenting with subwoofer DSP if you haven’t done so—this stuff really works!
Give the idea of a second sub a test drive if you can...SVS offers a 60 day in-home trial—if it isn’t for you after experimenting, you are only out $40 for shipping it back to them. But if it does happen to work out, you just may take your listening to a new level.
Also, SVS announced just yesterday a new 3000 series sub (13” driver). It has all the DSP and control via app like the 4000 series and 16 series, but at a little lower price point (the actual driver is not as massive as it’s larger brothers)...I believe they are $1200 delivered.
Posted on 11/15/18 at 6:27 pm to Marco Esquandolas
It's happening, now just have to wait til Saturday to start messing with stuff
Posted on 11/15/18 at 7:56 pm to davidlsu
Audio porn! Always good to see. Enjoy!
Posted on 11/15/18 at 8:00 pm to Marco Esquandolas
Thank you Marco. I’ll definitely be researching it. As you’ve found out properly blending one sub can be a challenge. Kudos to you for making two work. Someday I’d like to have a room that has dimensions that really work for audio. I appreciate the detailed response. I’m the type that wants to learn something inside and out when I tackle it. Looks like the low end might be that new frontier for me.
Well, that and the dive I’m taking into spices and sauces to enhance my cooking. Talk about a slippery slope.
Well, that and the dive I’m taking into spices and sauces to enhance my cooking. Talk about a slippery slope.
Posted on 11/15/18 at 8:14 pm to davidlsu
davidlsu.....attaboy!
Posted on 11/16/18 at 12:58 am to Marco Esquandolas
!!!Attention Audiophiles of the Music Board...Please Respond!!!
After reading the below information, I ask that my fellow MB audio posters that have any interest please give me some feedback....and I thank you in advance.
About 30 years ago, a few audiophiles in the New Orleans area got together and formed a loose audio club called B.B.A.T.S. (Big Boys Audio Toys Society). Over the years it has been a fairly decent group that would get together every month at a member’s home for an afternoon/evening of listening, audio talk, and general socializing. Typically, the host would explain the intricacies of his system, any changes made since the group was last there, and then show it off by playing music for all to enjoy.
It enjoyed many great years and led to many friendships that have lasted for years. But, as Father Time marched forward, the old audio club has failed to keep up with him. In short, the average age of the current roster is probably around 68. I state this not as a knock against the older guys, but as a reality that there isn’t much new blood in the group, and therefore, not much in the way of modern gear displayed, new music/artists introduced, future technologies discussed, or recent concerts experienced. It is stagnant and slowly dying.
I recently met with the current president and he actually agreed with me on all these points, and we both came to the conclusion that there needs to be a complete overhaul of the club.
Rather than overhaul the existing club, I have instead decided to grab the bull by the horns and take on the task of creating a totally new organization. I currently have a very loose group of audiophile friends not involved in the old group (about 15 of us—all in our mid 40’s) that try get together from time to time, but it is difficult to get more than 4 or 5 at one setting. It is very informal, and usually consists of food, drink, and conversations totally unrelated to audio (that tends to happen when you become friends beyond the audio connection).
I would like to change that—for the better.
My goal is to get a group of people that are interested in music, all phases of music reproduction, including audio gear, software, and processes, for the purpose of expanding their knowledge and familiarity with all aspects of the audiophile sphere.
I plan on getting all the local audio dealers involved, giving them the opportunity to show new gear at meetings. I also intend to have, at least a couple times a year, engineers/designers or reps from some of the audio manufacturers to deliver an informative presentation on something of current relevance to the audio community.
I want this new group to be free to all who are interested. While we will need hosts for these get togethers (every couple months), I also understand that many people don’t have the capability to host a group of 40-50 people, so I am ditching the old rule that every member must be willing to host an event. We will have enough people with homes that can facilitate a group this size, and I don’t want to alienate any person who has a passion for the hobby but not the means to host. I am also aware that the younger guys (about 20-33 in age) interested in meeting with other audiophiles may have just purchased their first new home or may be starting a new family, and probably don’t have the discretionary funds lying around to host a group this size—so the more tenured guys will pick up that responsibility.
I want to stress that ANYONE interested in audio or music is welcomed...it doesn’t matter if their audio system is $500 or $500,000 (yes, we have a couple that high!)—it is about sharing audio experiences among others while consuming good food and spirits and building comraderie.
Over the next couple weeks, I am meeting with a few people to attempt to put together a leadership group that will be responsible for building a member base, planning a modern communication platform to keep members updated on all activities (FB & Instagram pages, phone/text/email contact list), and a host schedule for the first year.
I am shooting for the first meet to be here at my place (Greater New Orleans) shortly after Mardi Gras 2019.
...and, of course, all interested audio-heads in this thread are welcomed to join us.
So, who would be interested in participating in the new New Orleans Audiophile Club?
...(for those interested , I will give my contact info in this thread when the time comes)
After reading the below information, I ask that my fellow MB audio posters that have any interest please give me some feedback....and I thank you in advance.
About 30 years ago, a few audiophiles in the New Orleans area got together and formed a loose audio club called B.B.A.T.S. (Big Boys Audio Toys Society). Over the years it has been a fairly decent group that would get together every month at a member’s home for an afternoon/evening of listening, audio talk, and general socializing. Typically, the host would explain the intricacies of his system, any changes made since the group was last there, and then show it off by playing music for all to enjoy.
It enjoyed many great years and led to many friendships that have lasted for years. But, as Father Time marched forward, the old audio club has failed to keep up with him. In short, the average age of the current roster is probably around 68. I state this not as a knock against the older guys, but as a reality that there isn’t much new blood in the group, and therefore, not much in the way of modern gear displayed, new music/artists introduced, future technologies discussed, or recent concerts experienced. It is stagnant and slowly dying.
I recently met with the current president and he actually agreed with me on all these points, and we both came to the conclusion that there needs to be a complete overhaul of the club.
Rather than overhaul the existing club, I have instead decided to grab the bull by the horns and take on the task of creating a totally new organization. I currently have a very loose group of audiophile friends not involved in the old group (about 15 of us—all in our mid 40’s) that try get together from time to time, but it is difficult to get more than 4 or 5 at one setting. It is very informal, and usually consists of food, drink, and conversations totally unrelated to audio (that tends to happen when you become friends beyond the audio connection).
I would like to change that—for the better.
My goal is to get a group of people that are interested in music, all phases of music reproduction, including audio gear, software, and processes, for the purpose of expanding their knowledge and familiarity with all aspects of the audiophile sphere.
I plan on getting all the local audio dealers involved, giving them the opportunity to show new gear at meetings. I also intend to have, at least a couple times a year, engineers/designers or reps from some of the audio manufacturers to deliver an informative presentation on something of current relevance to the audio community.
I want this new group to be free to all who are interested. While we will need hosts for these get togethers (every couple months), I also understand that many people don’t have the capability to host a group of 40-50 people, so I am ditching the old rule that every member must be willing to host an event. We will have enough people with homes that can facilitate a group this size, and I don’t want to alienate any person who has a passion for the hobby but not the means to host. I am also aware that the younger guys (about 20-33 in age) interested in meeting with other audiophiles may have just purchased their first new home or may be starting a new family, and probably don’t have the discretionary funds lying around to host a group this size—so the more tenured guys will pick up that responsibility.
I want to stress that ANYONE interested in audio or music is welcomed...it doesn’t matter if their audio system is $500 or $500,000 (yes, we have a couple that high!)—it is about sharing audio experiences among others while consuming good food and spirits and building comraderie.
Over the next couple weeks, I am meeting with a few people to attempt to put together a leadership group that will be responsible for building a member base, planning a modern communication platform to keep members updated on all activities (FB & Instagram pages, phone/text/email contact list), and a host schedule for the first year.
I am shooting for the first meet to be here at my place (Greater New Orleans) shortly after Mardi Gras 2019.
...and, of course, all interested audio-heads in this thread are welcomed to join us.
So, who would be interested in participating in the new New Orleans Audiophile Club?
...(for those interested , I will give my contact info in this thread when the time comes)
Posted on 11/16/18 at 1:53 am to Marco Esquandolas
Dang that's to bad I'm 9 hours away sounds like alot of fun
Side not you guys aren't kidding just messing around w these t9i for an hour or so they definitely bring another element to the game, I knew something was off I just couldn't tell, these are definitely hitting home I can't wait to find the sweet spot this weekend, now just need to get this amp and I'll be set for a while until I can spend some big money on better towers.
I just wanted to thank everyone again so glad i got into this hobby and enjoying learning something new and great quality music. ( might have had a few drinks)
Side not you guys aren't kidding just messing around w these t9i for an hour or so they definitely bring another element to the game, I knew something was off I just couldn't tell, these are definitely hitting home I can't wait to find the sweet spot this weekend, now just need to get this amp and I'll be set for a while until I can spend some big money on better towers.
I just wanted to thank everyone again so glad i got into this hobby and enjoying learning something new and great quality music. ( might have had a few drinks)
Posted on 11/16/18 at 2:03 am to Marco Esquandolas
Posted on 11/16/18 at 2:25 am to davidlsu
The PS Audio is a hybrid, with output stage running in class D...I would probably run a class A or class A/B amp wi5 the Quad pre...
Posted on 11/16/18 at 4:47 pm to Marco Esquandolas
Definitely in!
Got caught in the office... going to give your guy a call when I get a chance.
Got caught in the office... going to give your guy a call when I get a chance.
Page 197 of 320
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News