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Message
re: Net Neutrality -- What You Need To Know
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 5/19/14 at 4:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
not that much, but i would be interested to see what a free market could/would do
So why change it? The ISPs only want this to make more money. If their only motive is to find a way to make more money, how would that work out well for consumers?
Oh and you keep saying that the consumers control the corporations, but when an overwhelming portion of the public is against this and the ISPs are still pursuing it, it seems that the ISPs are not acting with the best interest of the consumer in mind.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:02 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:
So why change it?
it may be better, especially for those on the lower end of the internet-usage spectrum. it may get much cheaper for them
quote:
If their only motive is to find a way to make more money, how would that work out well for consumers?
typically this works out well for consumers, because providing a better product at a better price is how you increase market share/profits.
quote:
but when an overwhelming portion of the public is against this and the ISPs are still pursuing it, it seems that the ISPs are not acting with the best interest of the consumer in mind.
first of all, i don't think the "overwhelming portion of the public" even has an opinion of net neutrality, and the vocal minority of internet power users has dominated the discussion
secondly, we don't know how the public, acting as market participants, will react. we can guess, but we don't know. people vocally oppose all sorts of shite until implementation, and then grow to enjoy it.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:03 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i want them to be removed from government protection
by giving them more gov't protection? You are giving them a gov't controlled market. Its anti-competitive at its core, and anti consumer.
quote:
i truly believe that we may see some crazy developments, even with the barriers to entry. the old telecom companies may end up behind, and consumers may end up way ahead. it's theoretically possible
I personally think the telcos are setting themselves up for a blockbuster moment. As soon as consumers can bolt, they will. But ending net neutrality is just going to entrench them, enrich executives and stop competition.
My guess is the blockbuster style moment is in 3-4 years, the technology is just not there for mass WIFI, but its close.
I know where I live they are putting strong wifi towers on apartment buildings, so if you are within a few blocks you can get internet. It ends about 3 blocks from me now, but they are expanding. As soon as I can switch, I will.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
typically this works out well for consumers, because providing a better product at a better price is how you increase market share/profits.
I fail to see how my ISP choosing what websites I can and can't view efficiently is a better product.
quote:
first of all, i don't think the "overwhelming portion of the public" even has an opinion of net neutrality
You're right, I should have worded that better. Most of the public is oblivious to this just like they are with most social and political issues.
quote:
and the vocal minority of internet power users has dominated the discussion
Well I am far from a "power user" and I'm strongly against this.
quote:
secondly, we don't know how the public, acting as market participants, will react. we can guess, but we don't know. people vocally oppose all sorts of shite until implementation, and then grow to enjoy it.
I fail to see how we should just accept this because "we might like it eventually"
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:08 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the free market typically does
The internet is the ultimate free market, but you seem ok with giving ISPs total control over that market AND their own.
quote:
the free market works itself out (which means consumers benefit more and more), except for some outlier scenarios (Which are typically due to government interference).
The "free market" isn't some magical concept that always works out best for consumers without government interference. It does for a while, as long as competition is high and barriers to entry are low. Flipping those two variables results in a market that is anything but free.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:08 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
You are giving them a gov't controlled market.
wait what?
government is currently controlling the ISPs via N/N rules. how is removing these rules creating a government-controlled market? government has moved itself out of the way and has less of an imprint on the market.
Note: i am not discussing crony capitalism moves like south carolina banning municipal internet
quote:
I personally think the telcos are setting themselves up for a blockbuster moment. As soon as consumers can bolt, they will.
i agree. and it will be glorious. i've said for years that companies like time warner and comcast are going to crumble due to their recent behaviors. this allows that to happen more quickly
quote:
My guess is the blockbuster style moment is in 3-4 years, the technology is just not there for mass WIFI, but its close.
I know where I live they are putting strong wifi towers on apartment buildings, so if you are within a few blocks you can get internet. It ends about 3 blocks from me now, but they are expanding. As soon as I can switch, I will.
see? this is exactly the type of innovation that i am talking about. sticking with the staus quo will just ensure we stick with the status quo. i want to see municipal fiber. i want to see companies like google lay down fiber. i want to see new creative ways to exchange data from computer to computer, which may lead to a non-cable world. most of all, i want to see any company that ignores what its customers do want out of some temporary domination of a particular market to pay down the road
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:09 pm to Cap Crunch
quote:
I fail to see how my ISP choosing what websites I can and can't view efficiently is a better product.
even if it makes your internet cheaper?
even if it only affects sites you don't even go to?
quote:
I fail to see how we should just accept this because "we might like it eventually"
are you scared of all innovation or market change?
and what, exactly, are you accepting? you haven't been impacted at all. we don't know what you are accepting
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:11 pm to Korkstand
quote:
, but you seem ok with giving ISPs total control over that market AND their own.
i'm OK with removing government restrictions on ISPs in how they use their own property and how they contract, in an effort to see what happens and how this affects consumers
let's state my stance clearly and without bias
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
even if it makes your internet cheaper?
even if it only affects sites you don't even go to?
TBH I don't really want to risk it. I'm fine with what I pay now knowing I have full freedom on the internet.
quote:
are you scared of all innovation or market change?
Who says we have to get rid of Net Neutrality for innovation or market change to happen? Of course I want those things to happen.
quote:
and what, exactly, are you accepting? you haven't been impacted at all. we don't know what you are accepting
Limited access to the Internet.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
government is currently controlling the ISPs via N/N rules. how is removing these rules creating a government-controlled market? government has moved itself out of the way and has less of an imprint on the market.
Yes of course, the gov't has given them practically a monopoly, and eliminating these rules will further extend their power.
quote:
see? this is exactly the type of innovation that i am talking about. sticking with the staus quo will just ensure we stick with the status quo. i want to see municipal fiber. i want to see companies like google lay down fiber. i want to see new creative ways to exchange data from computer to computer, which may lead to a non-cable world. most of all, i want to see any company that ignores what its customers do want out of some temporary domination of a particular market to pay down the road
So it has to get worse before it gets better? I don't think that is going to fly with me.
Net neutrality screws the consumer. If they can differentiate traffic, they can stop you (or make it inconvenient) from receiving stories, ads or other things from their competition. Its fricking brilliant scheme on their part, and the fact they have convinced others of this is either pure brilliance or mass stupidity. Probably a bit of both.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:quote:let's just be clear. that is due to government and i want to combat this very problem
Its almost a monopoly in some markets
The reason the government interfered and created these monopolies is the same reason we don't have duplicate power lines (except for redundancy) and water lines. It was understood somewhat early on that having multiple phone and cable lines running everywhere was unnecessary and wasteful, especially considering the likelihood that these competing companies would merge sooner or later anyway. I typically don't like government involvement, either, but in cases of massive infrastructure it can be necessary.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we're debating government policy, not seeing what consumers in the non-N/N market choose
In this case, consumers know their choices are limited, and that's why we're debating government policy.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:23 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
Yes of course, the gov't has given them practically a monopoly
see i don't agree with this. more government to fix government just makes things worse for everyone, though
quote:
So it has to get worse before it gets better?
it's possible it has to get worse before it gets better. and it may get worse for some, but may be better for others from the get go. we do not know. we have nothing of which to judge the future, because the future has not occurred yet.
quote:
If they can differentiate traffic, they can stop you (or make it inconvenient) from receiving stories, ads or other things from their competition. Its fricking brilliant scheme on their part, and the fact they have convinced others of this is either pure brilliance or mass stupidity. Probably a bit of both.
i don't think the vast majority of consumers care
there is a great deal of elitism in these arguments. i didn't want to really get into it, but it's true
y'all are ignoring the average person and how they use the internet. these people dominate the market. how the market works for these people is what is going to shape the market. for far too long, we (i include myself) "internet elitists" have lived a subsidized live on the internet. we're probably going to have to start paying our fair share, while the typical internet consumer lives a subsidized internet life.
if you want to divide the discussion up like this, you can: what percentage of the population must benefit, compared to what percentage of the population will face detriment? i'd wager right now the current policies benefit a small % of total users (your "internet elites" or "power users"), to the detriment of a much larger % (your typical/average user)
you can ask why they must subsidize our behavior patterns, especially when they're in the majority
i think a large part of the hysteria and fear mongering is from people scared of being treated like your average/typical consumer
This post was edited on 5/19/14 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:24 pm to Korkstand
quote:
I typically don't like government involvement, either, but in cases of massive infrastructure it can be necessary.
its only required b.c we made it required.
I think I understand SFP's argument, its - let's remove net neutrality b.c gov't involvement is bad and if we remove all gov't involvement, it will get better. This is fine from an academic perspective but its not fine from a practical perspective. If we had actual competition in chosing ISPs, net neutrality wouldnt matter b.c those who failed to offer it would get killed in the market place. But we don't, we are stuck with one or two options in most markets.
And gov't is not going to remove the other barriers, in fact, they are creating more of them.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:26 pm to Korkstand
quote:
consumers know their choices are limited, and that's why we're debating government policy.
that's non-responsive
a vocal minority is "protesting" online, trying to steer government policy
that is completely irrelevant to how the total market will react to changes in the "new world" of the policy being debated
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:government protected monopolies is a free market?
the free market typically does
And there are plenty of examples in US history where the free market didn't work itself out
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:28 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
This is fine from an academic perspective but its not fine from a practical perspective.
we don't know that, yet
my argument is to see how this affects the market and then make the policy decision. we have the N/N market example. we don't have a non-N/N market example to compare to. we can't really evaluate the 2 policies without data from both policies
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:28 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i'm OK with removing government restrictions on ISPs in how they use their own property and how they contract, in an effort to see what happens and how this affects consumers
let's state my stance clearly and without bias
Well here is my stance: it is very clear that ISPs intend to turn the internet into a model strongly resembling TV, and the internet will be a shell of its former self. The intensely competitive playing field that the internet currently provides will be severely hampered, and consumers and the economy will suffer as a result.
You can call it fear or whatever, but I call it seeing the writing on the wall.
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:29 pm to Korkstand
quote:
, but I call it seeing the writing on the wall.
your assumption is that all ISPs will act the same
since all ISPs will act the same, why haven't all ISPs restricted the use of google wallet?
Posted on 5/19/14 at 5:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
see i don't agree with this. more government to fix government just makes things worse for everyone, though
its not more gov't. It something we already have.
quote:
it's possible it has to get worse before it gets better. and it may get worse for some, but may be better for others from the get go. we do not know. we have nothing of which to judge the future, because the future has not occurred yet.
The internet is such a core part of our life, I don't think we should be making decisions through unelected committee.
quote:
i don't think the vast majority of consumers care
Probably not. Technology scares a lot of people. And those who talk technology scare others with terminology.
I do really believe that almost everyone will be worse off with net neutrality. Giving corporations more control of your life is a non-starter in my opinion.
quote:
i think a large part of the hysteria and fear mongering is from people scared of being treated like your average/typical consumer
the chance of this actually impacting me or other power users is relatively low. I cannot foresee how they can actually impact my internet activities. It may cost me a bit more money but I don't pay for that anyway.
Its others I worry about.
quote:
you can ask why they must subsidize our behavior patterns, especially when they're in the majority
I doubt I am in the top 5% in terms of internet traffic. I don't watch streaming, and rarely go near my soft cap. And I could easily trim 100gb off my internet usage. I am not stealing other people's bandwidth. Its pretty rare I use the internet during peak times in fact.
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