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Message
re: Why Are You Against Abortion?
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:22 pm to moneyg
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:22 pm to moneyg
quote:
I could make a damn good argument that you are putting the convenience of a woman over the life of a child.
See that's the issue for me exactly. In some cases its the life of the woman versus the life of a child.
Every woman who gets pregnant is at risk to die directly because of that pregnancy.
I know I have told this story before...
A friend died a couple of years ago in child birth. Just died. There were no complications. The pregnancy was completely normal. She was completely healthy in every way.
Her husband took her son to friends and his wife to the hospital to give birth to his sibling one day and returned home to his son with out the brother or sister or his mom.
So it really comes down to whose life you value you more.
I always have and always will error on the side of the woman and not the life with in her. Always.
Do some girls use this as birth control. Yep and that sucks...but for the overwhelming majority they do not. And they are grateful to have been able to make that choice when the time came.
3
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:26 pm to asurob1
quote:uh what am I in denial about? do tell Dr
Again, it takes someone who is in denial to be unable to understand the other side of the argument.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:27 pm to RaginCajunz
quote:
You support her making the choice to kill the baby. I get that. My argument is that she had the choice to engage in behavior which is designed for making a baby. The choice was there, she made it. I support that choice whole hardheartedly. I do not support her decision to abort that life no more than I support her decision to kill her 6 month old baby.
Well the issue here is people make mistakes, I don't think that someone should be punished for the rest of her life because she made a mistake. People fall back to the what if she was raped/forced etc. Not what I'm talking about. Condoms break, birth control fails, etc etc etc. People sometimes are doing everything they can do to prevent pregnancy and an opps happens. I just don't see the difference in a first trimester abortion and using a condom, or the pill or anything else. Those methods are all designed to prevent pregnancy. Abortion in it's early stages does the same thing. (It will be noted that I no way endorse late term abortions).
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:27 pm to ninthward
quote:you're joking right?
You must think because I think women shouldn't vote that I'm prejudice against them.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:31 pm to asurob1
quote:
You support her making the choice to kill the baby. I get that. My argument is that she had the choice to engage in behavior which is designed for making a baby. The choice was there, she made it. I support that choice whole hardheartedly. I do not support her decision to abort that life no more than I support her decision to kill her 6 month old baby.
Well the issue here is people make mistakes, I don't think that someone should be punished for the rest of her life because she made a mistake. People fall back to the what if she was raped/forced etc. Not what I'm talking about. Condoms break, birth control fails, etc etc etc. People sometimes are doing everything they can do to prevent pregnancy and an opps happens. I just don't see the difference in a first trimester abortion and using a condom, or the pill or anything else. Those methods are all designed to prevent pregnancy. Abortion in it's early stages does the same thing. (It will be noted that I no way endorse late term abortions).
I understand and respect that opinion. I think there should at least be some limit at the first trimester. Unfortunately life's choices have consequences. Abstaining from intercourse really is the only way to fully prevent it. I realize that isn't a reasonable expectation. However, I'm also a believer in that choice has a know possible outcome that generates a life to care for. Risk:Reward. I was a bit more on the fence about the issue until I had a child of my own and #2 on the way.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:33 pm to asurob1
quote:
That's the problem. Whose morals? Yours? Mine?...honestly at the end of the day the only moral choice here is with the woman in question. Her's are the only ones that counts. The problem with you and others is you are attempting to push your morals/ethics on someone else. That's meddling. And that's where we have a disagreement.
Are you saying pushing one's ethic is wrong?
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:36 pm to RaginCajunz
quote:
I understand and respect that opinion. I think there should at least be some limit at the first trimester. Unfortunately life's choices have consequences. Abstaining from intercourse really is the only way to fully prevent it. I realize that isn't a reasonable expectation. However, I'm also a believer in that choice has a know possible outcome that generates a life to care for. Risk:Reward. I was a bit more on the fence about the issue until I had a child of my own and #2 on the way.
Well that's where the divide lies...kids are immortal...ask them. They never realize the risk part of sex until the aftermath.
I worked very hard with both of my daughters to get them to have "responsible" sex. VERY VERY few parents have frank talks with their kids and tend to go into emergency mode after the fact when their precious angel comes home knocked up.
I still think the christian right shoots itself in the damn foot by preaching abstinence. You want to prevent abortion...teach responsible sex. You teach kids that sex isn't this taboo thing that they should be afraid to talk with you as a parent and chances are pretty good they will be responsible when they start having it.
And funny, those teen pregnancy rates and abortion rates will go down.
Knowledge is power.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:40 pm to asurob1
quote:
See that's the issue for me exactly. In some cases its the life of the woman versus the life of a child.
Every woman who gets pregnant is at risk to die directly because of that pregnancy.
For the sake of argument, for now, let's ignore the situations where there is a known complication where it's either the life of the mother or the life of the baby...or even a known significant risk to the mother. That's an argument that should be held on its own, and it's not reflective of the conversation that's been had in this thread.
The natural risk of death of a mother in childbirth is miniscule. That risk is not the driver of abortion in this country...to suggest otherwise is dishonest.
So, your personal example listed above would be like not driving anywhere if you've ever known someone who died in an accident. It just isn't rational.
quote:
Do some girls use this as birth control. Yep and that sucks...but for the overwhelming majority they do not.
There is no way that you actually believe that.
ETA, maybe you are defining birth control differently. Are you denying that the majority of women who are choosing abortion are doing so from a convenience standpoint?
This post was edited on 5/1/14 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:43 pm to ninthward
quote:
uh what am I in denial about? do tell Dr
Your pretense that those who are pro-life believe woman are objects and similarly, your inability to acknowledge that pro-life people are concerned with what they believe is a human life is a classic example of someone who is in denial.
You've manufactured this strawman in your head.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:55 pm to moneyg
quote:
ETA, maybe you are defining birth control differently. Are you denying that the majority of women who are choosing abortion are doing so from a convenience standpoint?
Not at all.
Most people who choose abortion think of it no differently then the morning after pill or any other kind of birth control....at the time.
And that is their right. Frankly, abortion ends life. Condoms prevent life. Most think that it's the same thing. Which is why the use of abortion as just another birth control is so prevalent in today's America and why if people would get off their arse and educate. You'd like see the number of abortions in this country drop significantly.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 12:59 pm to moneyg
quote:
Your pretense that those who are pro-life believe woman are objects and similarly, your inability to acknowledge that pro-life people are concerned with what they believe is a human life is a classic example of someone who is in denial.
We have seen that in this thread.
How many more cracks do you need to see about women's inabilty to vote correctly (correctly from the stand point of what the men want) in this thread.
Many (not all, not the majority) many think of women as no more then objects. Breeders if you will. They have one function. To look good and make me a sandwich.
It's part of the gigantic national debate that is heating up about subjects like slut shaming, sexual assault, equal pay for equal work, etc etc etc.
Anytime I participate in an abortion debate there always are several who pop off how women are "incapable" of making decisions.
It's ridiculous.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:00 pm to asurob1
quote:
Not at all.
Most people who choose abortion think of it no differently then the morning after pill or any other kind of birth control....at the time.
So, you agree with me that the health risks really aren't a driver at all.
quote:
And that is their right.
Legally? Of course. I don't think we are having a debate about the interpretation of abortion laws.
quote:
Condoms prevent life. Most think that it's the same thing. Which is why the use of abortion as just another birth control is so prevalent in today's America and why if people would get off their arse and educate. You'd like see the number of abortions in this country drop significantly.
Personally, I'd like to drop them to zero. But, I fully support education and easy access to birth control.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:01 pm to asurob1
It's called gender roles. And it's science. If you understood science you would understand why we haven't "evolved" or "matured" as a society.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:02 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:Compared to what?
It's called gender roles. And it's science. If you understood science you would understand why we haven't "evolved" or "matured" as a society.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:04 pm to asurob1
quote:
Your pretense that those who are pro-life believe woman are objects and similarly, your inability to acknowledge that pro-life people are concerned with what they believe is a human life is a classic example of someone who is in denial.
We have seen that in this thread.
Here you go...
quote:
Parental moral high ground alert, and the fact is most do not adopt.
Secondly, it is no one else's say what women can do with their body, no law on earth gives you the moral or physical right over another, unless that is you still feel that women are objects. That is the only way to condone the attitude that YOUR opinion, religion and moral character are above or better than another.
quote:
How many more cracks do you need to see about women's inabilty to vote correctly (correctly from the stand point of what the men want) in this thread.
Obviously, they shouldn't be taken seriously.
quote:
Many (not all, not the majority) many think of women as no more then objects. Breeders if you will. They have one function. To look good and make me a sandwich.
Ridiculous. There is no way you truly believe that.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:05 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
It's called gender roles. And it's science. If you understood science you would understand why we haven't "evolved" or "matured" as a society.
like is said. It's ridiculous how little some people think of women's capabilities.
You would be example A.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:07 pm to asurob1
Women are very capable of some things. Men are very capable at other things. There is nothing wrong with that.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:09 pm to moneyg
quote:
So, you agree with me that the health risks really aren't a driver at all.
It's not "the" driver. But it certainly is "a" driver. Most (not all) anti-abortion types are working to end all abortions...no matter the circumstance. I have a great issue with that...and why I have dug my heels in so hard to keep "all" abortions on the table...no matter the circumstance.
quote:
Legally? Of course. I don't think we are having a debate about the interpretation of abortion laws.
The debate isn't about the laws...it's about the laws we'd like to see based on our morality/ethics. Abortion is never going away. So it makes for nice political fodder.
quote:
Personally, I'd like to drop them to zero. But, I fully support education and easy access to birth control.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind zero myself. As long as in turn that meant we were educating our kids and giving them access to the various means to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
Sadly, many (not all) on the other side think of sex as evil so any product having anything to do with sex is equally evil.
I often laugh at puritan America with its sex phobia on television. See a tit and freak out, but on that same station I can watch people brutally murder others and that's cool.
A very entertaining country we live in.
This post was edited on 5/1/14 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:14 pm to moneyg
quote:
Many (not all, not the majority) many think of women as no more then objects. Breeders if you will. They have one function. To look good and make me a sandwich.
Ridiculous. There is no way you truly believe that.
I do, I have seen it time and time again. I had a frank talk with my wife one day regarding being a woman in America. She related to me how she could be standing in a subway and someone random would grab her arse. Walking across the campus she works at and have guys just start following her telling her how sexy she looks. shite like this happens all the time.
She is just one example certainly but by no means do I believe that this is that uncommon.
Now me, I can't fathom behaving that way, but the fact that this sort of thing happens to my wife ...all the time....
Yeah, I have little doubt how common the thought women serve no purpose other then to be sex objects to many (not all) men.
And the whole abortion debate between men regarding the choices women want to make in their body is just an extension of the whole...
"don't worry your pretty head about" attitude.
We should not even be a part of the debate...yet here we are.
Posted on 5/1/14 at 1:19 pm to asurob1
quote:
It's not "the" driver. But it certainly is "a" driver. Most (not all) anti-abortion types are working to end all abortions...no matter the circumstance. I have a great issue with that...and why I have dug my heels in so hard to keep "all" abortions on the table...no matter the circumstance.
That's intellectually dishonest. It sounds like you are saying that you are ignoring 99% of something you would agree with because of a hotly contested 1% of the issue. That's not logical, and it certainly isn't what's going on here.
In truth, you are using the 1% as a tool in your argument. That's it. It's not like those who disagree with you would not be willing to come to an agreement on the elimination of non-special case abortions.
They may want to have another conversation about the special cases, but you indicating you can't discuss one without the other is simply dishonest.
quote:
Honestly, I wouldn't mind zero myself. As long as in turn that meant we were educating our kids and giving them access to the various means to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
Good to know.
quote:
Sadly, many (not all) on the other side think of sex as evil so any product having anything to do with sex is equally evil.
I often laugh at puritan America with its sex phobia on television. See a tit and freak out, but on that same station I can watch people brutal murder others and that's cool.
You've gone off the unreasonable ledge again. You shouldn't disparage the way that some people raise their kids any more than others should attack you for how you raise yours.
I fundamentally believe that there is a right time for children to be introduced to sexual themes. I don't think that makes me crazy.
And, while I don't care to go much further on this topic, there is a difference between casual sex being presented as "good" vs. murder being presented as "bad". Of course, I'm not suggesting that adult themes don't have a place on TV or advocating some strict control of the airwaves. I'm just saying that it's actually good parenting when someone filters the content that their child views.
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