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Message
re: Budget comparisons between St George & other Louisiana cities
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:13 pm to LSURussian
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:13 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Why? We have examples of other city governments both inside EBR and outside the parish to compare their costs versus what the SG organizers claim what SG will need to operate. Where the money goes is unrelated to where it comes from.
This is a ridiculous comment. For Richardson to come back with a multi page report and state SG would cost 53 million dollars in lost revenues he had to know the sales tax figures as well as business taxes, etc.
To say it's not critical to know where the sales tax or other taxes come from is silly. It is germane to the entire financial discussion.
1
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:16 pm to dewster
quote:
What new services would St George need to provide with incorporation other than the costs of a new school district?
St. George could incorporate and not get a new school district so the answer could be zero.
But I doubt that, there are probably some services they will need to provide; however, they are already paying for them now.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:19 pm to LSURussian
quote:
And it won't be 'a few hundred a thousand...." It will cost anyone with a $250,000-$300,000 home a couple thousand dollars more a year, forever, for the new property taxes. And that applies to the residents who don't have children or no children of school age.
Do you have a link to the expert analysis that supports this statement or is this an assumption on your part?
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 1:21 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:20 pm to LSURussian
[
Excellent job of describing exactly why we need to have a metro police dept. and not a city police dept.
Let the sheriff guard the jail, collect taxes, subpoena and do their other constitutional tasks and get them out of patrolling the parish.
quote:
And now if the sheriff can't respond to a crime call outside the city limits for whatever reason, he can request assistance from BRPD to take the call. That is part of the cooperative agreement between the two law enforcement agencies. The sheriff is not staffed to maintain full police protection for over 100,000 people spread out over 85 square miles. It's just not doable without a drastic increase in manpower and equipment. Most people fail to realize the EBR sheriff's primary responsibility is to run the parish prison. Almost half (350+ deputies out of 800) of the total sheriff's staff work exclusively at the prison, not patrolling the street. And then there's his property tax collection duties as required by state law..... And how long do you think it will take before the sheriff and a new power hungry elected mayor have a falling out and the mayor wants to have his own police force? Not long. I give it 5 years, tops.
Excellent job of describing exactly why we need to have a metro police dept. and not a city police dept.
Let the sheriff guard the jail, collect taxes, subpoena and do their other constitutional tasks and get them out of patrolling the parish.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:23 pm to dewster
quote:
I agree that St George will be responsible for a larger share of law enforcement costs much the way Central is with EBRSO service in their city......but what about being incorporated makes 100,000 people over 85 square miles so much more difficult to patrol than it did before incorporation that it would necessitate a massive new police force beyond what already exists? I could certainly envision a scenario where some additional manpower would be needed, and even see a tax proposal on a ballot in the future to beef up police protection.....but not an instant need for a massive new police force.
The fact is we are currently being under patrolled now or the patrols or suitable. This won't change if St. George incorporates.
Now I do agree that there may be situations that might be too big for St. George, but then again what do Baker, Zachary and Central do now if something "big" happens there?
Bodies just don't lay there at the crime scene do they?
Posted on 1/9/14 at 1:41 pm to doubleb
Beyond a couple of posters on tigerdroppings, I haven't seen anyone argue that St George's law enforcement needs would be drastically different simply by incorporating or that they would have to raise taxes in order to incorporate.
The main complaint with the opposition is that St George would keep more of their tax dollars if incorporated, and that could negatively impact the city of Baton Rouge since a massive share of sales tax revenue is generated in unincorporated southern EBR.
So....which is it? Will St George not be able to keep an adequate portion of their tax revenue after incorporation or (since the opposition is arguing that this have a catastrophic impact on Baton Rouge's budget) will they be able to keep a larger share of the significant sales tax revenue generated in their district?
These arguments seem to conflict with each other. Which point is the opposition getting behind?
The main complaint with the opposition is that St George would keep more of their tax dollars if incorporated, and that could negatively impact the city of Baton Rouge since a massive share of sales tax revenue is generated in unincorporated southern EBR.
So....which is it? Will St George not be able to keep an adequate portion of their tax revenue after incorporation or (since the opposition is arguing that this have a catastrophic impact on Baton Rouge's budget) will they be able to keep a larger share of the significant sales tax revenue generated in their district?
These arguments seem to conflict with each other. Which point is the opposition getting behind?
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:12 pm to doubleb
quote:Did you not read the post I was replying to? The guy switched from 'where does the money come from' to 'if we don't know where the money comes from how can you say how much money is needed?"
This is a ridiculous comment.
Try reading posts in the context they were written.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:12 pm to doubleb
quote:I agree 100%.
Excellent job of describing exactly why we need to have a metro police dept. and not a city police dept.
Let the sheriff guard the jail, collect taxes, subpoena and do their other constitutional tasks and get them out of patrolling the parish.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:16 pm to LSURussian
quote:
quote:
quote:
Excellent job of describing exactly why we need to have a metro police dept. and not a city police dept.
Let the sheriff guard the jail, collect taxes, subpoena and do their other constitutional tasks and get them out of patrolling the parish.
I agree 100%.
You might as well forget about a consolidated police force under an elected official's control with the resources to handle 450,000 residents. It will never happen.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:18 pm to dewster
quote:
Beyond a couple of posters on tigerdroppings, I haven't seen anyone argue that St George's law enforcement needs would be drastically different simply by incorporating or that they would have to raise taxes in order to incorporate. The main complaint with the opposition is that St George would keep more of their tax dollars if incorporated, and that could negatively impact the city of Baton Rouge since a massive share of sales tax revenue is generated in unincorporated southern EBR. So....which is it? Will St George not be able to keep an adequate portion of their tax revenue after incorporation or (since the opposition is arguing that this have a catastrophic impact on Baton Rouge's budget) will they be able to keep a larger share of the significant sales tax revenue generated in their district? These arguments seem to conflict with each other. Which point is the opposition getting behind?
I've been playing devil's advocate to Russian who seems to argue things both ways.
For instance if no one knows how much sales tax revenue, how did the city's expert tell us the city would lose 53 million bucks?
Also if we incorporate, why suddenly would we be under patrolled if we aren't already under patrolled now, and how does Central and Zachary and Baker get by without a crime lab?
I'm hesitant to support St. George as a city because it isn't really a community. It's really two fire districts made up of suburban areas, heavy commercial areas, hospitals, and rural farm lands. I think a city should be homogenous, and not just an area to really work.
As a conservative like Russian I've always cried out about the lack of oversight on the Library System, BREC and CATS. They seem to be separate empire's with little oversight.
I also supported making a metro police dept. and taking the sheriff out of the patrol business. As a business man I thought it best for the public and a money saver.
As for the Fire Dept., some of that is a necessary evil; however, the fire dept. can be merged too if needed.
In fact many of the arguments for not making a city and for keeping BR strong are good arguments for BR incorporating the area known now as St. George and for eliminating this BR city thing and making everyone equal.
But alas you have the big enchilada. The school system. And Dewster, folks out here are ready to change that. They have been stymied at every turn. They sincerely believe that by becoming a city, they can get their schools back under their control and away from the corruption that is there now.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:19 pm to dewster
quote:You're in Memphis, right? So are you saying people in Memphis don't talk about the SG situation in social settings?
Beyond a couple of posters on tigerdroppings, I haven't seen anyone argue that St George's law enforcement needs would be drastically different simply by incorporating or that they would have to raise taxes in order to incorporate.
I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!!
There is quite a bit of discussion about it everywhere I go. Someone close to me personally owns a $340,000 house in SG. They pay just under $3,000/year in property taxes. They are terrified their property taxes could go to $5,000+/year.
If you look back most people in Zachary and Central were not expecting property tax increases either when they were first discussing getting their own school system. But they got them.
Why people in SG think they will be different is a mystery to me. Blind hope, I suppose.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:22 pm to doubleb
quote:I give up.
For instance if no one knows how much sales tax revenue, how did the city's expert tell us the city would lose 53 million bucks?
Either you're not reading all the posts in this thread or you're just being obtuse.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:23 pm to dewster
quote:I 100% agree.
Excellent job of describing exactly why we need to have a metro police dept. and not a city police dept.
Let the sheriff guard the jail, collect taxes, subpoena and do their other constitutional tasks and get them out of patrolling the parish.
I agree 100%.
You might as well forget about a consolidated police force under an elected official's control with the resources to handle 450,000 residents. It will never happen.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:26 pm to LSURussian
quote:
If you look back most people in Zachary and Central were not expecting property tax increases either when they were first discussing getting their own school system. But they got them.
St. George officals don't expect taxes to increase with incorporation....not the formation of school districts.
quote:
You're in Memphis, right? So are you saying people in Memphis don't talk about the SG situation in social settings?
Do you think I'm poorly informed on this issue?
quote:
There is quite a bit of discussion about it everywhere I go. Someone close to me personally owns a $340,000 house in SG. They pay just under $3,000/year in property taxes. They are terrified their property taxes could go to $5,000+/year.
There's no reason to believe that at this point - especially with respect to incorporation. I do believe taxes will increase to support the new schools, but fearing that your taxes incease anywhere near that amount is absolutely foolish. Any tax increase would require a vote.
Clearly they are subject to the same fear monger than lead you to believe that St. George would need a vastly expanded law enforcement agency, a separate DPW, and other redundant public services.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 2:34 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:32 pm to LSURussian
quote:
There is quite a bit of discussion about it everywhere I go. Someone close to me personally owns a $340,000 house in SG. They pay just under $3,000/year in property taxes. They are terrified their property taxes could go to $5,000+/year. If you look back most people in Zachary and Central were not expecting property tax increases either when they were first discussing getting their own school system. But they got them. Why people in SG think they will be different is a mystery to me. Blind hope, I suppose.
There should be discussion, but property taxes won't go up without a vote of the people in the school district. The mayor or a city council can't unilaterally raise your property taxes.
The school board would have to call for an election and get it passed.
And the guy paying $3,000 a year in property taxes is already paying a lot for taxes on schools so it's not like he's not paying for schools already. He is already paying a lot.
But I do agree that a new school district is created and it is shown a need for new schools then St. George would need to pass a property tax or do something to raise funds to build new schools. Some kind of capital program would have to be initiated and that cost mucho dinero.
But maybe your friend could send his kids to public schools and save the money he was paying to a private school?
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:37 pm to doubleb
quote:True. But all we hear on this board from SG supporters is how many new schools are needed in the SG area and that is one of the driving forces to get out of EBR school system.
There should be discussion, but property taxes won't go up without a vote of the people in the school district. The mayor or a city council can't unilaterally raise your property taxes.
Here is a paragraph from wiki about the history of the Central School District that I found interesting.
quote:
Although it was originally communicated to the residents of Central that no new taxes would be necessary, the Central Community School Board voted unanimously on May 5, 2008, to call for a school tax and bond election on Saturday July 19 to build a new $98 million educational compex designed to replace all of the city's current aging schools.
Deja vu all over again....
quote:He is, but I don't see your point. The guy does not want to pay thousands more. They have no children.
And the guy paying $3,000 a year in property taxes is already paying a lot for taxes on schools so it's not like he's not paying for schools already. He is already paying a lot.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:38 pm to LSURussian
quote:
He is, but I don't see your point. The guy does not want to pay thousands more. They have no children.
There's no reason to believe his taxes will double or nearly triple like you outlined....and he'll definately get to vote on a tax increase.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although it was originally communicated to the residents of Central that no new taxes would be necessary, the Central Community School Board voted unanimously on May 5, 2008, to call for a school tax and bond election on Saturday July 19 to build a new $98 million educational compex designed to replace all of the city's current aging schools.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deja vu all over again....
It shouldn't be...St. George officals have suggested that they don't believe taxes will have to increase to incorporate. They have not stated that taxes definately will not have to increase to support the construction of new schools for the St. George independent school district.
I've tried to clarify this for you several times but you continue to ignore it.
Central has their own school district and voted to improve their facilities by passing a tax. What's wrong with that? Central is doing just fine. They've got a good school district and a decent land use plan. Property values seem to be quite stable there.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:46 pm to LSURussian
quote:
True. But all we hear on this board from SG supporters is how many new schools are needed in the SG area and that is one of the driving forces to get out of EBR school system.
Any intelligent person realizes new schools won't come free.
quote:
He is, but I don't see your point. The guy does not want to pay thousands more. They have no children
Currently your friend is subject to paying more taxes if the current school district passes another property tax vote so what difference does it make? He will have to abide by the majority of the people no matter where he lives. Heck, he might have to pay for a huge entertainment complex downtown.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:50 pm to dewster
quote:
These arguments seem to conflict with each other
They conflict if you count the overhead associated with setting up a separate police department as zero.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:02 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
They conflict if you count the overhead associated with setting up a separate police department as zero
The budget shows 3 million plus for police. That's to pay the sheriff and a new police chief who is mandated by law. They do not envision their own police department.
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