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Started By
Message
re: My only Hunt so far this year.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:04 pm to TexasTiger
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:04 pm to TexasTiger
You don't know me, what kind of hunter I am, or how I will have changed in x years. I can honestly say that the very last time I climb in a tree stand, I will have the same standards I have now.
Also, I know there are people who hunt by the "if it's brown, it's down" rule. My point is, if it's their deer, and they want to be proud of it, let them for Pete's sake.
Also, I know there are people who hunt by the "if it's brown, it's down" rule. My point is, if it's their deer, and they want to be proud of it, let them for Pete's sake.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:07 pm to TexasTiger
Just an fyi, I've shot more bucks than I remember over 8 pts. There's a pile of racks in my garage that I don't even remember where they all came from. Many of which even you might consider trophies. In my later years, I shot does for meat a hell of a lot more often than I shot bucks and I let bucks walk or just took pictures of them that most people would have shot simply because I had decided they weren't old enough to shoot yet and I wanted them fricking more does.
I do know where you're coming from on this.
And it's from the perspective that more, bigger racked bucks is better.
And while it's definitely cool, it's not an indication of a healthier herd. Because if it was, you could just fence off an area, kill off the local deer with all their inherent immunities, fill it with known good horn producing stock and viola! Superior herd! Of course those get devastated by disease fairly often but we'll just ignore that little outlier because look the horns on this skull I found!
A healthy herd is a local, wild herd with enough food and water and predators to keep it down into that population range for that area to sustain.
Horns ain't in that equation anywhere.
I do know where you're coming from on this.
And it's from the perspective that more, bigger racked bucks is better.
And while it's definitely cool, it's not an indication of a healthier herd. Because if it was, you could just fence off an area, kill off the local deer with all their inherent immunities, fill it with known good horn producing stock and viola! Superior herd! Of course those get devastated by disease fairly often but we'll just ignore that little outlier because look the horns on this skull I found!
A healthy herd is a local, wild herd with enough food and water and predators to keep it down into that population range for that area to sustain.
Horns ain't in that equation anywhere.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:09 pm to jsb29
quote:
Also, I know there are people who hunt by the "if it's brown, it's down" rule. My point is, if it's their deer, and they want to be proud of it, let them for Pete's sake.
For Petes sake I can understand, my problem with the petes of the world is these are guys that bitch and moan about never seeing good deer, or get pissed when someone kills a nice deer close to an area they hunt. The Petes of the world can't have it both ways.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:21 pm to faxis
quote:
And it's from the perspective that more, bigger racked bucks is better.
from a management stand up you are right..from a healthly herd stand point you are right horns don't matter.
but at the end of the day taking the older mature bucks and does out of the herd and taking animals with bad gentics will help the overall heath and wellbeing of he herd.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:30 pm to TexasTiger
quote:
and taking animals with bad gentics will help the overall heath and wellbeing of he herd.
So if your too good to shoot anything less than a trophy, how do you cull?
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:33 pm to TexasTiger
OK now we're getting somewhere. The question then becomes, what are bad genetics?
I agree that older bucks need to be taken out simply from the standpoint that they aren't likely breeding anymore and thus are simply wasting resources that could go towards raising the next generation.
But we've still got the doe problem. You can't see the genetics you are trying to select for. But at some point, you've got to try to keep the does down enough to where they aren't pumping out so many fawns that you're going to crash the herd with starvation eventually. So how do you select the best does to harvest?
Obviously the old ones for the same reason you take old bucks. And hurt/diseased ones for similar reasons. But if you're trying to select for horns, the only thing you can do is somehow ID the doe that makes a big horned buck and put her on a no kill list.
It's practically impossible and it's why deer farms tag everything.
I agree that older bucks need to be taken out simply from the standpoint that they aren't likely breeding anymore and thus are simply wasting resources that could go towards raising the next generation.
But we've still got the doe problem. You can't see the genetics you are trying to select for. But at some point, you've got to try to keep the does down enough to where they aren't pumping out so many fawns that you're going to crash the herd with starvation eventually. So how do you select the best does to harvest?
Obviously the old ones for the same reason you take old bucks. And hurt/diseased ones for similar reasons. But if you're trying to select for horns, the only thing you can do is somehow ID the doe that makes a big horned buck and put her on a no kill list.
It's practically impossible and it's why deer farms tag everything.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:38 pm to faxis
You are never going to get it perfect, but you control what you can...and that is what bucks will be breeding the does.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:39 pm to faxis
Wait wait wait
How did this dude get off the hook from trashing people who are proud of "non-mature deer?"
How did this dude get off the hook from trashing people who are proud of "non-mature deer?"
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:44 pm to MillerMan
Yeah but you may just be fooling yourself there. That buck you're looking at that you think should be a 'breeder' may also be passing along a gene that makes his progeny more susceptible to disease.
Horns are just pretty things we wish they all had more of.
Take into account that buck and doe has the genes of a buck and a doe in each of them. As did they. As did they. Etc etc. That buck's horns may not breed true and may simply be a fluke. They may not take precedence over the dominance of the does 'horns gene'.
If you're selecting from a wild herd by just killing off shitty horned bucks, mathematically you are chasing a result you likely won't live long enough to actually experience herd wide. And holy shite are you gonna have to kill a lot of does to do it. Each of which is just a coin flip as to whether you're actually working against your goal or not.
Horns are just pretty things we wish they all had more of.
Take into account that buck and doe has the genes of a buck and a doe in each of them. As did they. As did they. Etc etc. That buck's horns may not breed true and may simply be a fluke. They may not take precedence over the dominance of the does 'horns gene'.
If you're selecting from a wild herd by just killing off shitty horned bucks, mathematically you are chasing a result you likely won't live long enough to actually experience herd wide. And holy shite are you gonna have to kill a lot of does to do it. Each of which is just a coin flip as to whether you're actually working against your goal or not.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:48 pm to Langston
quote:
So if your too good to shoot anything less than a trophy, how do you cull?
dude let it go you are missing the whole point.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:51 pm to faxis
quote:
gene that makes his progeny more susceptible to disease.
quote:
That buck's horns may not breed true and may simply be a fluke.
You come up with a lot of scenarios that I would argue are more often the exception than the rule. Yes this stuff happens, but you can't really argue with the overall results when you compare a place with an active management program to one that doesn't.
This post was edited on 12/5/12 at 2:52 pm
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:53 pm to TexasTiger
quote:
dude let it go you are missing the whole point
No, I got the point
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:57 pm to MillerMan
Depends on what you're calling an active management program.
If it's don't shoot young bucks and try to get to 50/50 buck doe ratio, you're going to have measurable results in three years for better racks but you're going to bumping up against the limits of the local herds genetics. Some places just have better horn genetics than others.
If it's that you want to make monster horned deer and you're managing by high fencing and basically starting over with select stock, then it's irrelevant. You can grow whatever you like consistently as long as you can afford it.
But the idea that you can take a wild population, and only shoot 'inferior bucks' and see any big improvement in genetics is fooling yourself. The math doesn't work. And the main reason is what I said about the does. Every doe you take, you have just as much chance of working against your goal as you do of working toward it.
If it's a perfect system and everyone there agrees on what will and wont be shot and you have no other competing predators, you might eventually get there, but it's going to be a multi generational effort to get there.
If it's don't shoot young bucks and try to get to 50/50 buck doe ratio, you're going to have measurable results in three years for better racks but you're going to bumping up against the limits of the local herds genetics. Some places just have better horn genetics than others.
If it's that you want to make monster horned deer and you're managing by high fencing and basically starting over with select stock, then it's irrelevant. You can grow whatever you like consistently as long as you can afford it.
But the idea that you can take a wild population, and only shoot 'inferior bucks' and see any big improvement in genetics is fooling yourself. The math doesn't work. And the main reason is what I said about the does. Every doe you take, you have just as much chance of working against your goal as you do of working toward it.
If it's a perfect system and everyone there agrees on what will and wont be shot and you have no other competing predators, you might eventually get there, but it's going to be a multi generational effort to get there.
This post was edited on 12/5/12 at 3:00 pm
Posted on 12/5/12 at 2:58 pm to TexasTiger
I tend to agree with what you're saying in here. I don't hunt in Texas.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 3:01 pm to Langston
No because you keep refering to me shooting only throphies. I don't think I have said anything about only killing throphy deer.
I said our goal should be to take mature deer out of the herd.
So no you don't get the point.
I said our goal should be to take mature deer out of the herd.
So no you don't get the point.
Posted on 12/5/12 at 3:03 pm to DieselTiger1
So you think a man being proud of a 12" wide 8 point is stupid?
Son, I am disappoint
Son, I am disappoint
Posted on 12/5/12 at 3:07 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Not what I said. I think people should try to take mature deer. I understand your point about swamp deer vs tx, but if people were shooting less small deer in the swamp, there would be more mature deer running around. I feel sure that you and everyone you hunt with would rather shoot bigger bucks if given the option. Am I wrong?
Posted on 12/5/12 at 3:13 pm to BayouBrawl
sorry your thread got hijacked. congrats on the 2 does, nice kills.
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