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Message

Is the practice of "oversigning" a way to cheat, or morally wrong?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:16 pm
My friend, who is an OSU and Big 10 fan, gave me this article from an Ohio blog site. He thinks this proves that the SEC is a bunch of cheaters and ethically challenged.
swampbubbles.com
I told him that this is not some nefarious secret, and that I was surprised to hear that other Div 1 schools don't do it. Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't athletes told up front what's going on? Are middle of the pack and lower scholarship players really surprised that they have to continuously fight for and earn their scholarship? Or are they told this up front, so that it's not really a surprise when they are cut and allowed to transfer to another school?
swampbubbles.com
quote:
College football, and the practice of oversigning
By JeepMaker - Posted on January 6th, 2011
quote:
I must admit that until recently, I had never heard of "oversigning". Now, the more I read the more disgusted I get. For years we've been hearing about how dominant the SEC is. Well, this could be a big reason why.
Basically, oversigning works like this. The NCAA limits teams to 85 players on scholarship at a time. So let's say at the end of the year, a team has 85 players o.s. . 18 graduate, and 2 leave early for the draft. That leaves 20 open scholarship spots so you go out and recruit 20 new players right? Not in the SEC. The SEC will typically sign as many as they can, though more recently the NCAA put a yearly limit at 25.
So, to get down to the magical number 85, some kids are gonna get screwed. Since this "cut" most always happens at ot near the national signing day, the other major schools will have no scholarships left either. So some of those kids who were promised scholarships are on the outside looking in, or going to some junior college. Sometimes the schools will even yank the scholarship of an established player because they think they got a recruit who may be better.
I told him that this is not some nefarious secret, and that I was surprised to hear that other Div 1 schools don't do it. Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't athletes told up front what's going on? Are middle of the pack and lower scholarship players really surprised that they have to continuously fight for and earn their scholarship? Or are they told this up front, so that it's not really a surprise when they are cut and allowed to transfer to another school?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:28 pm to Jimbeaux
'attrition' is real. 3-4 kids every year leave the program due to injuries, playing time concerns, etc.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:35 pm to bmy
What about the commitment that doesn't make the grades and causes the school to miss out on a player?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:41 pm to Jimbeaux
Here's another site dedicated to blasting the practice:
oversigning.com
I'm trying to view the practice without my purple and gold glasses, but to me, it comes down to the promise made to the athlete at the time they are offered a scholarship and/or when they sign the letter of intent. If an athlete has the understanding that the are being given a 4-5 year scholarship that is irrevocable except for any violations on their part, then this does seem to be reprehensible.
On the other hand, if an athlete knows full well that he is getting a scholarship that could be taken if he is beaten out of the roster spot by a new recruit/player, and he chooses to go there anyway, and he knows he can transfer without penalty if things don't work out, then I really don't see any ethical problems with the practice. They are choosing to go to that school knowing that they must continue to work to keep their spot on the roster, and a scholarship.
This is a risk that each athlete must weigh given their own level of talent, and the competition level of the school. If a medium level recruit gets a schooly from LSU, and it doesn't work out, he knows he can very likely transfer to a second level school, or even another BCS school that happens to have more room at that position. Lester Ricard transferred from LSU to Tulane where he had a productive career as a two or three year started. Same with Craig Nall who transferred to Northwestern.
These are guys who have big hopes to be starters. They mostly transfer for the reason that they want a chance for more playing time at another school. The fact that they were given a chance to earn a starting spot at LSU, but didn't beat out the competition, doesn't make LSU out to be the bad guy. In fact, I would think many of these players were thankful for the opportunity, even if things didn't work out.
Is there an aspect here that I'm missing?
oversigning.com
I'm trying to view the practice without my purple and gold glasses, but to me, it comes down to the promise made to the athlete at the time they are offered a scholarship and/or when they sign the letter of intent. If an athlete has the understanding that the are being given a 4-5 year scholarship that is irrevocable except for any violations on their part, then this does seem to be reprehensible.
On the other hand, if an athlete knows full well that he is getting a scholarship that could be taken if he is beaten out of the roster spot by a new recruit/player, and he chooses to go there anyway, and he knows he can transfer without penalty if things don't work out, then I really don't see any ethical problems with the practice. They are choosing to go to that school knowing that they must continue to work to keep their spot on the roster, and a scholarship.
This is a risk that each athlete must weigh given their own level of talent, and the competition level of the school. If a medium level recruit gets a schooly from LSU, and it doesn't work out, he knows he can very likely transfer to a second level school, or even another BCS school that happens to have more room at that position. Lester Ricard transferred from LSU to Tulane where he had a productive career as a two or three year started. Same with Craig Nall who transferred to Northwestern.
These are guys who have big hopes to be starters. They mostly transfer for the reason that they want a chance for more playing time at another school. The fact that they were given a chance to earn a starting spot at LSU, but didn't beat out the competition, doesn't make LSU out to be the bad guy. In fact, I would think many of these players were thankful for the opportunity, even if things didn't work out.
Is there an aspect here that I'm missing?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:43 pm to bmy
quote:Do all players who get hurt and aren't able to continue to play lose their scholarship? Or are some of them given assurances that even if they are hurt, they will be kept on scholarship at the university?
'attrition' is real. 3-4 kids every year leave the program due to injuries, playing time concerns, etc.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:44 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Is the practice of "oversigning" a way to cheat, or morally wrong?
Neither. The only time the practice is marginally questionable is when a qualified recruit is denied a ship because of oversigning and even then it's rare and the impact is not really that bad. Upper classmen who get cut are like those on academic scholarships who lose them because they fail to meet the necessary standards. The athletic standards are more subjective, but the principle is the same. Coaches don't make these cuts arbitrarily.
Recruits that don't get ships and go on to JC are those who didn't qualify. The point of signing them is to build a relationship for a possible future signing. Nothing evil going on here.
The only ones left are recruits that are asked to grayshirt. Usually they are asked in advance, and if they agree then what's the beef. The problem is when you have a situation like Porter last year where we screwed up the numbers when everyone qualified to our surprise. Porter was asked to grayshirt at the last minute after he had already been in summer school.
That's really not cool, but it's important to remember that he would have still gotten his ship, but he would have had to wait one semester. Porter could have chosen to make lemonade out of this lemon by taking the gray shirt especially since he was going to be redshirted anyway. He could better prepared himself for college and athletic life while moving his 5yr eligibility out another year. He chose not to.
Like I said what happened to him was not cool, but it's not like Miles put a cap in his knee. All of this is within the rules and it's really not morally wrong. It's just life.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:45 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Sometimes the schools will even yank the scholarship of an established player because they think they got a recruit who may be better.
I'll need some specifics i.e. school and kids name, otherwise i can see this scenario happens at every school.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:46 pm to Indiana Tiger
I'd make up excuses too if I knew that my conference, which was for so long the dominant force in college football is on the downslope and the new super power, the SEC takes home national titles on the reg.
Just a bunch of whining crybabies who don't know how to handle someone else's success.
Just a bunch of whining crybabies who don't know how to handle someone else's success.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:51 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Do all players who get hurt and aren't able to continue to play lose their scholarship? Or are some of them given assurances that even if they are hurt, they will be kept on scholarship at the university?
The kind of injured players thay you are talking about are taken off the football team, stay on scholarhip and don't count against the numbers, but they can't play again.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:55 pm to Jimbeaux
Its no more wrong than the kids who switch schools and put schools in a bad spot.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:57 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:They have a rule against it, so they get butthurt over it. They did not have to pass the rule. Much of our pain is self-chosen.
My friend, who is an OSU and Big 10 fan
Posted on 1/11/11 at 3:58 pm to bmy
Attrition is real and works in different ways.
Some guys get injured (Mark Snyder, Jordon Corbin, Delvin Breaux) but usually they stay in school and get some kind of medical scholarship.
Some kids get kicked off the team (RP, Troy Giddens, Zhamal Thomas and Derrick Odom) and go elsewhere.
Some just decide to leave (E. McCoy, Clay Spencer) even though we don't necessarily want them too.
Others just aren't that good and go elsewhere (Phelon Jones, Sidell Corley) to get PT.
The only practice I didn't like was the E. Porter situation, which doesn't happen that often. We would have asked him to greyshirt though and allowed him to enroll this year though and followed up on our end to give him a schollarship. The SEC actually has a rule (I think because of Houston Nutt) that we can only sign so many because he had 32 one year.
Some guys get injured (Mark Snyder, Jordon Corbin, Delvin Breaux) but usually they stay in school and get some kind of medical scholarship.
Some kids get kicked off the team (RP, Troy Giddens, Zhamal Thomas and Derrick Odom) and go elsewhere.
Some just decide to leave (E. McCoy, Clay Spencer) even though we don't necessarily want them too.
Others just aren't that good and go elsewhere (Phelon Jones, Sidell Corley) to get PT.
The only practice I didn't like was the E. Porter situation, which doesn't happen that often. We would have asked him to greyshirt though and allowed him to enroll this year though and followed up on our end to give him a schollarship. The SEC actually has a rule (I think because of Houston Nutt) that we can only sign so many because he had 32 one year.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:10 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
being given a 4-5 year scholarship
I might be wrong, but I thought a players scholly is up for renewal every year (in the grand scheme of things).
Just like an academic scholly, if a student doesn't perform up to a certain level, then that scholly would be taken away, or not renewed.
Correct?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:13 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
I'm trying to view the practice without my purple and gold glasses, but to me, it comes down to the promise made to the athlete at the time they are offered a scholarship and/or when they sign the letter of intent. If an athlete has the understanding that the are being given a 4-5 year scholarship that is irrevocable except for any violations on their part, then this does seem to be reprehensible.
If anything, the athlete needs to be able to understand the conditions of the scholarship.
If the player ceases to make "satisfactory progress" their scholarship can be revoked. This is what happened to Chris Garrett. I think a lot of players don't understand this.
BOTTOM LINE: What SEC teams do is perfectly legal. We are taking full advantage of the letter of the law and the Big 10 isn't.
Rather than adopt the practice themselves, the Big 10 has taken to crying about it so they can get the rules changed.
This is going to make every team worse. Screw that.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:14 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Do all players who get hurt and aren't able to continue to play lose their scholarship? Or are some of them given assurances that even if they are hurt, they will be kept on scholarship at the university?
Most who get hurt go on medical scholarship and no longer count toward the 85.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:18 pm to Suntiger
quote:
The only practice I didn't like was the E. Porter situation, which doesn't happen that often. We would have asked him to greyshirt
I think too much was made of this. First of all, taking a greyshirt is not that bad. You simply enroll part time for the Fall and pay your own way (that is the most difficult part). Your scholarship starts in the Spring.
We have never NOT honored a greyshirt, and we have had several players do it who have gone on to contribute in a huge way to the team. Harry Coleman and Trindon Holliday are two examples.
SECONDLY - Elliott Porter still had a way out, got released from his LOI, and signed with another SEC team where he has a much better opportunity to see the field early in his career.
I don't see the issue. Porter did what was best for him. He had a choice and he made it.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:18 pm to TxTiger82
How is this different than academic schollys? If a student is on academic scholarship and is making a 2.0 or less, do you think the institution should continue to uphold their commitment based upon the grades?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:19 pm to bmy
quote:
'attrition' is real. 3-4 kids every year leave the program due to injuries, playing time concerns, etc.
Add to this the fact that LSU has only averaged around 25 signees for the last four years.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:20 pm to TheoreticalTiger
Exactly. It is no different.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 4:30 pm to TxTiger82
This all started when the NCAA trying to help the little schools out made the scholarship a year to year deal.
So many of the larger schools have used this to cut players, look at the number Ole Miss, Auburn and Alabama have gone though in the last 4-6 years.
Until the NCAA makes a 4 year ship, this will keep happening.
So many of the larger schools have used this to cut players, look at the number Ole Miss, Auburn and Alabama have gone though in the last 4-6 years.
Until the NCAA makes a 4 year ship, this will keep happening.
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