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re: Is the practice of "oversigning" a way to cheat, or morally wrong?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:12 pm to tigger1
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:12 pm to tigger1
According to Rivals, here are just the Big 10 schools that have over-signed:
2010 - Michigan (27)
2009 - Penn St (27)
2008 - Minnesota (30)
Illinois (28)
2006 - Illinois (27)
Mich St (28)
Purdue (27
That is just the Big 10. The ACC, Pac10, Big 12 all do it as well every year.
I don't understand why this is used against the SEC and why now? Go look at the Rivals' rankings the last 10 years and there are half of the top 25 from all conferences that over-sign.
2010 - Michigan (27)
2009 - Penn St (27)
2008 - Minnesota (30)
Illinois (28)
2006 - Illinois (27)
Mich St (28)
Purdue (27
That is just the Big 10. The ACC, Pac10, Big 12 all do it as well every year.
I don't understand why this is used against the SEC and why now? Go look at the Rivals' rankings the last 10 years and there are half of the top 25 from all conferences that over-sign.
1
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:15 pm to tigger1
quote:
So many of the larger schools have used this to cut players, look at the number Ole Miss, Auburn and Alabama have gone though in the last 4-6 years.
This is something I was originally hoping to get some information about. Can you provide me with some examples of players who were cut from the roster at LSU - under circumstances that they believed was unfair?
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:39 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Can you provide me with some examples of players who were cut from the roster at LSU - under circumstances that they believed was unfair?
I don't think you are going to find this. If anything, I think the coaches will likely tell kids that they need to look elsewhere because they aren't working out and they do. Most don't make a big stink about being "cut" and just move on like Matt Allen, Cordian Hagans, Sidell Corley, Chris Garrett, Phelon Jones, etc.
That being said, we have some guys who never play who would be considered candidates to be "cut" but aren't, so I think the kids usually do what's in their best interest.
IMO & IMHO
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:44 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
I'm trying to view the practice without my purple and gold glasses, but to me, it comes down to the promise made to the athlete at the time they are offered a scholarship and/or when they sign the letter of intent. If an athlete has the understanding that the are being given a 4-5 year scholarship that is irrevocable except for any violations on their part, then this does seem to be reprehensible. On the other hand, if an athlete knows full well that he is getting a scholarship that could be taken if he is beaten out of the roster spot by a new recruit/player, and he chooses to go there anyway, and he knows he can transfer without penalty if things don't work out, then I really don't see any ethical problems with the practice. They are choosing to go to that school knowing that they must continue to work to keep their spot on the roster, and a scholarship. This is a risk that each athlete must weigh given their own level of talent, and the competition level of the school. If a medium level recruit gets a schooly from LSU, and it doesn't work out, he knows he can very likely transfer to a second level school, or even another BCS school that happens to have more room at that position. Lester Ricard transferred from LSU to Tulane where he had a productive career as a two or three year started. Same with Craig Nall who transferred to Northwestern.
These are guys who have big hopes to be starters. They mostly transfer for the reason that they want a chance for more playing time at another school. The fact that they were given a chance to earn a starting spot at LSU, but didn't beat out the competition, doesn't make LSU out to be the bad guy. In fact, I would think many of these players were thankful for the opportunity, even if things didn't work out.
Is there an aspect here that I'm missing?
Well thought out post. The part I bolded is really the cornerstone of the "morality" or "rightness or wrongness" of the practice.
Personally, I believe coaches are often sunshine pumpers to these kids about how they are needed and how good they are. At best it is misleading, at worst, lying. Example (and yes this is picking on Bama, but I am most familiar with their practices), Saban has tried to cover this up by yelling at the media that it is non of their business, forcing medical redshirts with no medical reason, etc. Do you think he tells a linebacker recruit that bama is deeper than any team in the country at that position and Saban will oversign by 12-15 players this year and approximately 1/3-1/2 of the class that signs today will HAVE to leave at some point simply to make room for his desire to oversign? Of course not, but that is the truth. So it is a shady, disengenious, misleading practice that is not right unless the coaches are upfront about these things and not misleading.
Number 2: It does provide a significant competitive advantage. Other programs and conferences that do not do this are at a serious disadvantage. Period.
Number 3: It does violate every single intention of the 85 limit. Either drop the 85 limit so everyone is on an even playing field and prospective athletes are not misled or lied to, or fix the problem.
This post was edited on 1/11/11 at 5:46 pm
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:52 pm to Tubedog13
quote:
According to Rivals, here are just the Big 10 schools that have over-signed:
2010 - Michigan (27)
2009 - Penn St (27)
2008 - Minnesota (30)
Illinois (28)
2006 - Illinois (27)
Mich St (28)
Purdue (27
That is just the Big 10. The ACC, Pac10, Big 12 all do it as well every year.
I don't understand why this is used against the SEC and why now? Go look at the Rivals' rankings the last 10 years and there are half of the top 25 from all conferences that over-sign.
It is not nearly that simple. You have to compare the number os spots available to the number signed and take into account likely non-qualifiers.
For example, AU loses 24 seniors this year, plus likely Fairly and Cam. That opens up 26 spots. In addition, Shon Coleman will likely resign with us, but not play (player that underwent chemo this past year), and will not end up counting against this years numbers. Therefore, including Coleman, we have 27 total spots available this year. If we sign 27, no one has to get cut, take a greyshirt, etc. If we sign 28 and 1 does not qualify, same thing. If we sign 29 and 1 does not qualify, we will have to cut 1 player next year.
You cannot just look at the number signed, you have to compare to spots available and anyone that is not going to qualify and have to go JUCO.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:52 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
Personally, I believe coaches are often sunshine pumpers to these kids about how they are needed and how good they are. At best it is misleading, at worst, lying. Example (and yes this is picking on Bama, but I am most familiar with their practices), Saban has tried to cover this up by yelling at the media that it is non of their business, forcing medical redshirts with no medical reason, etc. Do you think he tells a linebacker recruit that bama is deeper than any team in the country at that position and Saban will oversign by 12-15 players this year and approximately 1/3-1/2 of the class that signs today will HAVE to leave at some point simply to make room for his desire to oversign? Of course not, but that is the truth. So it is a shady, disengenious, misleading practice that is not right unless the coaches are upfront about these things and not misleading.
Sometimes Injuries are not always released to the public, and other times a medical hardship can be given to someone that was on thin ice at the time anyways, and no one would bat an eye.
SO it goes both ways. Do I think what happened to Garrett was shitty. Not at all. He chose not to work out over the summer and ate himself out of a scholarship. He didn't put forth the work ethic you want in the leader of a team so we pulled his scholarship. ESPN did a great job of making us look like the bad guys though.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:53 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
Probably wouldn't have this problem if the smaller schools like Auburn hadn't lobbied to have scholarship reductions to try and even the playing field. Having said that, Auburn has been one of the worst, signing 17 more players since 2002 than even Bama. Unfortunately, they're also guilty of overcutting and putting more on the road as evidenced by the graduation rate of their athletes, well below the national average. This is of course, due in part to a 49% grad rate for black athletes. Fortunately, they graduated 100% of their white athletes, to at least get it close to mildly embarrassing as a whole.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:57 pm to tigger1
quote:
So many of the larger schools have used this to cut players, look at the number Ole Miss, Auburn and Alabama have gone though in the last 4-6 years.
Auburn has had to cut ZERO players. Tubs signed so many nonqualifiers, we have been shorthanded for years. Even this past year, we only had 83 on scholly. So we gave a couple of walk ons a scholly since we had extras.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 5:59 pm to Alahunter
Jesus Alahunter.
Doe you have to frick up every single thread by posting unrelated crap all the time. I just notice this thread and bam, there you are posting unrelated stuff.
Please stick to the topic and do not screw up ANOTHER thread or discussion with irrelevant tangents.
Doe you have to frick up every single thread by posting unrelated crap all the time. I just notice this thread and bam, there you are posting unrelated stuff.
Please stick to the topic and do not screw up ANOTHER thread or discussion with irrelevant tangents.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:02 pm to memphisplaya
quote:
Do I think what happened to Garrett was shitty. Not at all. He chose not to work out over the summer and ate himself out of a scholarship. He didn't put forth the work ethic you want in the leader of a team so we pulled his scholarship. ESPN did a great job of making us look like the bad guys though.
I agree about Garrett. ESPN's piece was very misleading regarding his situation.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:02 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
Everything I stated was relevant to oversigning. Auburn has done it more than any other school, including Bama. It's proven out if you look at the year by year account on rivals and if you look at the graduation rates of enrolled players. If they're not graduating, they're going somewhere.
Aside from all that. Scholarships are one yr agreements. Oversigning in itself is a bogus term. You either produce or you don't and lose your scholarship. University's recruit for academic scholarships and when the requirements aren't met for those, they don't retain them. Football is no different.
Aside from all that. Scholarships are one yr agreements. Oversigning in itself is a bogus term. You either produce or you don't and lose your scholarship. University's recruit for academic scholarships and when the requirements aren't met for those, they don't retain them. Football is no different.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:07 pm to Alahunter
quote:
Everything I stated was relevant to oversigning. Auburn has done it more than any other school, including Bama. It's proven out if you look at the year by year account on rivals and if you look at the graduation rates of enrolled players. If they're not graduating, they're going somewhere.
Or they never made it to school in the first place like dozens of signees under Tubs.
AU never cut anyone. Reason, we have not exceeded 85 in many years because guys did not qualify. If after you sign your class on Feb 2, and everyone reports, and you are under 85, guess what - NO CUTS. That has been AU's situation for years now.
Therefore, you point is not relevant to the discussion and never has been.
And if you want to start a discussion about race and graduation rates, why do you not do so?
Quit ruining every thread possible.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:10 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
Or they never made it to school in the first place like dozens of signees under Tubs.
Chiz has signed 60 in 2 yrs. And as far as grad rates, those are on enrolled players. If that many aren't graduating, they're ending up somewhere other than Auburn. Auburn cut 4 or 5 in Chiz's first year with no explanation given. Remember Furr? The guy that got the code red by Ethridge and company that mysteriously vanished from there too? Auburn has done plenty of cutting. That they do too much in the offseason is of no consequence. They cut the dead baggage as much or more than anyone else.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:12 pm to Alahunter
quote:
That they do too much in the offseason is of no consequence
Sure it is. The whole discussion is about cutting to get under the 85 limit. When you do not have to do this you are not even part of the discussion.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:12 pm to Jimbeaux
Some new recruits do not qualify. Some existing kids fail their classes or transfer.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:15 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
Auburn does their cutting after kids are on campus to make room for the next round the following year. Auburn would have their limits if they weren't cutting so many. The timing does not matter. If Auburn has 18 spots, but want 20, they cut the extra before the recruiting cycle begins. It's the same thing. And the stats prove it out. Enrolled rankings prove it out. And the graduation rates prove it out.
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:17 pm to Alahunter
Ok. Remind me who we cut this year to make room as you claim.
It is well documented the half dozen plus players bama cut, so I do not expect this will be a problem for you...
It is well documented the half dozen plus players bama cut, so I do not expect this will be a problem for you...
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:23 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
The well documented you give were helped to scholarships on other schools or were medical hardship scholarships that the NCAA has to approve of. For Auburn, in three yrs:
Dax Dellenbach — DS — Left team this summer
DeRon Furr — ATH — Transferred to Memphis shortly after a practice fight that involved multiple players
Raven Gray — DE — Practiced before 2008 season but never played a down and was not seen on sidelines. Did not return for 2009.
Marcus Jemison — LB — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Jomarcus Savage — DE — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Christian Thompson — LB — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Chris Slaughter — WR — Left team because of personal reasons after 2008 season
Brent Slusher — TE — Left team this summer after spending entire 2008 season on medical hardship
Chaz Ramsey — OL — Officially left team after 2008 season because of career-ending back injury, which he has since blamed on former offensive line coach Hugh Nall and former trainer Arnold Gamber in a lawsuit
Bo Harris — ATH — Played regularly his freshman season before transferring in 2008
Greg Smith — DT — Five-star juco transfer showed up overweight, redshirted, then transferred.
Lee Tilley — OL — Spent two years on Auburn roster, but never played and eventually left.
Bryant Miller — DE — Played sparingly in two seasons before leaving team
sprinkle in a few medical's that you constantly try to use as an excuse for cutting on top of those.
Dax Dellenbach — DS — Left team this summer
DeRon Furr — ATH — Transferred to Memphis shortly after a practice fight that involved multiple players
Raven Gray — DE — Practiced before 2008 season but never played a down and was not seen on sidelines. Did not return for 2009.
Marcus Jemison — LB — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Jomarcus Savage — DE — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Christian Thompson — LB — Removed from team this summer for unknown reasons
Chris Slaughter — WR — Left team because of personal reasons after 2008 season
Brent Slusher — TE — Left team this summer after spending entire 2008 season on medical hardship
Chaz Ramsey — OL — Officially left team after 2008 season because of career-ending back injury, which he has since blamed on former offensive line coach Hugh Nall and former trainer Arnold Gamber in a lawsuit
Bo Harris — ATH — Played regularly his freshman season before transferring in 2008
Greg Smith — DT — Five-star juco transfer showed up overweight, redshirted, then transferred.
Lee Tilley — OL — Spent two years on Auburn roster, but never played and eventually left.
Bryant Miller — DE — Played sparingly in two seasons before leaving team
sprinkle in a few medical's that you constantly try to use as an excuse for cutting on top of those.
This post was edited on 1/11/11 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 1/11/11 at 6:25 pm to tigger1
The school has the obligation to try win. People get mad that a kid gets a scholarship pulled but no one complains about the stars leaving early for the draft leaving the school up against it. If the kids aren't obligated by rules to complete all four years of eligibility then the school shouldn't be forced to honor the bad performers.
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