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Why You Can't "Stack the Box" vs. Auburn (with graphics/pics)

Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:33 pm
Posted by OBUDan
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
40723 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:33 pm
Alright, I've seen a boatload of criticism for John Chavis these past few days, most of it entirely unmerited. I'm not saying I completely agree with everything we did Saturday, but here's a look at why things are SO difficult against this Auburn offense.

1) Offense is a space game.

OC's want more space, DCs want less. The entire design of a spread (or in this case, spread option) offense is to spread the defense out. They want defenders scattered across the field to open up gaps for players to run through.

2) By running no huddle, Malzahn does not allow the defense to substitute.

This is key. What you see is that Auburn, nearly exclusively, runs a 5 man line. Rarely do they go two TEs. The one guy they do have (Lutzenkirchen) lines up as a TE/FB hybrid, at times in the backfield, at times as a true TE. Except they also sub him out a lot and play mostly 4 WRs (which is what they did a ton against LSU).

So here's how it looks:


Notice the 4 WRs (3 on the bottom, 1 at top). Notice how it spreads our defense out.

Newton ran right up the middle for about 15 yards.

Here's what it looks like on paper (different formation, same concept):



Realistically LSU is already "stacking the box." Stacking the box means having more defenders than they can block (they have 5 OL, we have 6 defenders).

People are saying we needed 7 or 8 guys in there.

If you bring in 8 guys, you leave two WRs uncovered. If you bring in 7, you leave one WR uncovered.

We chose to play them with 5 DBs most of the game. If you went "big" in terms of bringing in LBers, you have major liabilities in pass coverage.

Yes, our secondary is the best part of our team, but even an unaccomplished passer like Newton would dissect a defense leaving 2 WRs uncovered.

Their formations dictate how we line up.

Now the way you counter balance this is by having your front 4 eat space. You need at least one man to eat two blockers and the other three to occupy theirs. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for us (and we aren't really built like that defensively). So the result is, they end up with 5 on 5 every play, leaving us one LB to honor both the QB and RB.

THAT is why they ate our asses up on the ground.

Not because "we failed to stack the box."

If we stacked the box, everyone on here would be asking why the frick we allowed Cameron Newton to throw for 300 yards and had WRs running wide open down the field all day.

The bottom line is, Auburn's offense is SO difficult to defend because of a few reasons:

1) They spread you out and have speed at the skill positions.
2) Their QB is both a power runner and a speed runner. Tebow murdered defenses in this same way, but he did it by bludgeoning you for repeated first downs. Newton actually has the speed to rip a long one.
3) It becomes a game of pick your poison.

Malzahn orchestrated a great plan. It just so happens that our defense does not matchup well to this brand of offense. It's very difficult for even the best minds to gameplan against.

Saban's defense may actually have a good chance because he has a front 7 which is built more on occupying space rather than creating penetration/wreaking havoc.
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 2:35 pm
Posted by AlxTgr
Kyre Banorg
Member since Oct 2003
81821 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:36 pm to
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:37 pm to
Give it up. This defense of the nickel D against that offensive setup is ridiculous. You can't allow a QB to sit there whistling all day before deciding what lane he wants to run through.

He never completed a single pass downfield on LSU all day. If you bring one man off the edge, he's not a threat to automatically be able to find out which of his 4 receivers to throw to.

Auburn ran for more against LSU at a higher yards per carry average than what they could do against no other SEC team. The coaches messed up.
Posted by jobbieman
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2009
384 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:37 pm to
Great Post!
Posted by SwampDonks
Member since Mar 2008
18341 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to
Nice post, Dan
Posted by Geauxld Finger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
31816 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to
well done, but for anyone that knows football this much is obvious. What's even more difficult is picking whether to zone or man up. if you man up you can bring more pressure, but your outside defenders will have their backs to the ball. if you zone, he can run for chunks of yardage as he did saturday.
Posted by Jake85
New Orleans, LA
Member since Sep 2009
549 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to
This is probably the third thread I have seen like this... you guys can't possibly have jobs.
Posted by OBUDan
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
40723 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:38 pm to
Also want to add, Newton has beat the blitz all year long. He's made a lot of teams pay that blitz.

We did come at him from a few different angles with mixed success.
Posted by Chicken
Jackassistan
Member since Aug 2003
22053 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:54 pm to
Dan, with all due respect, we didn't "Stack the box" and gave up over 400 yards rushing...we will never know if stacking the box would have yielded a different/worse result.
Posted by Broham
Crowley
Member since Feb 2005
18448 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:56 pm to
quote:

Stacking the box means having more defenders than they can block

Oh really? So that defines stacking the box? No, not really.
Posted by BT
North La
Member since Aug 2008
9766 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:58 pm to
good post, however i would have at least considered using a 5 man front, that's the thing that I was most dissapointed in.
You mentioned pick your posion... for Au it is cam newton and this guy is a runner.
Hes not a bad passer, but as he has proven, his strength is carrying the football.

Take away one aspect of their offense and dare them to beat you with the other.
It was at least worth a look.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
424767 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

We chose to play them with 5 DBs most of the game. If you went "big" in terms of bringing in LBers, you have major liabilities in pass coverage.

Yes, our secondary is the best part of our team, but even an unaccomplished passer like Newton would dissect a defense leaving 2 WRs uncovered.

you took the biggest leap of faith, basically ever here

just b/c you have LBs in, does not mean you're leaving WRs open

OSU is perhaps the best team at shutting down the spread option now, and they typically go with a 4-3 look to do it

quote:

If we stacked the box, everyone on here would be asking why the frick we allowed Cameron Newton to throw for 300 yards and had WRs running wide open down the field all day.

why would either happen?

other than the fact that newton looks to adams 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, it's not like our LBs and coverage just say "frick it" and forget about WRs

quote:

3) It becomes a game of pick your poison.

newton: great runner, mediocre passer

we picked to shut down the passing game
Posted by German Shepard
Berlin, Germany
Member since Jan 2009
1057 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 3:07 pm to
Good job.
Posted by Topwater Trout
Red Stick
Member since Oct 2010
67601 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

We chose to play them with 5 DBs most of the game. If you went "big" in terms of bringing in LBers, you have major liabilities in pass coverage.



Their formations dictate how we line up


I guess we were defeated before we even got there. Auburns offense is unstoppable? I am glad we didn't attempt to change anything to stop the major liabilities we had against the run.

Defense can't dictate to the offense? Lets see how ole piss and bama do against them when they BLITZ him like crazy. If other teams play a different defensive scheme and shut him down what will be your answer?

Posted by Buck Sweep
Member since Oct 2010
853 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 3:27 pm to
Dan, you've done a nice breakdown. The folks that want to blame coaching, and scheme won't be swayed. You can't stack the box vs. 3 and 4 wide, AND when the QB is also a 6-6 250 TB, it becomes a numbers game that switches from advantage Defense, to advantage Offense. The only way to even come close to evening the numbers, is to walk a safety down, and play man free. That's a dangerous game to play...Cam can throw too.

Here's a bit I did on an Auburn site, which is where I saw what you've done here, and liked it.

The same play scored twice for us on Saturday. We're making our living off this play, and variations of it. We run it from different looks, and we can shift and motion, and they can audible which side they want to run it to based on the Def. alignment. Most times it's a read, sometimes it's straight give. Dyer ran one for a good gain off the straight "Power O", but Cam's "Heisman Moment" and McCaleb's long TD run were the same read play. Cam makes it go...the play calling during the whole game makes it go, and it's a "pick your poison" type deal for the defense. Instead of the normal backside read on the Zone Read, it's a frontside read of the DE, and they may still block him as well as read him. The only thing that really changes on the straight give "Power O" play, and the read option is how they deal with the DE on the front side, and the flow of the backs. On the Power O, they simply "kick him" with the F.

Cam's "Heisman Run". LSU looked to be in a hard Cover 2 here, but I'm not great at reading Defenses. Eric Smith is the F (I guess they call him H-Back), and Fannin is the H. I don't know if Smith is supposed to influence the DE or not, but he clearly avoided blocking him, and turned upfield after he went around him. The frontside DE is the read, and he comes upfield...that's a "keep read" for Cam. I would guess that Fannin is supposed to carry out a fake sweep around the end, but in this play, the DE was right in his path, so Mario cut it up field after the ball was pulled, and delivered a nice block that helped the run go. The pulling G, Isom, pulls up through the hole, and looks for the first LB he can find.



Ontario's "seal the deal" run. Same play, different look. LSU appears to be in a Cover 4 this play, but I can't see the S or the CB to the trips side. This time we're in Trips Left, and the F is Emory Blake. He gets enough of a block on the LB or DB ("W" whichever it is), Burns gets a decent enough block, as does the outermost WR (I can't tell who it was from the video), the Free Safety whiffed his tackle attempt at the point of attack, and Peterson couldn't run him down in time. This time, though the DE, I'm sure because of the adjustments LSU made to slow Cam, executes a "block down/step down" move...to fill the hole left by Ziemba blocking down, and instead of the pulling G, Isom, going up field, he simply blocks the DE with a log lock, and it doesn't even have to be a devastating block as there's no way that DE can reverse field to catch McCaleb. That DE stepping down is a "give read" for Cam, and with speed man Ontario McCaleb at the H, it's lights out for the LSU defense. This play was set up by Cam pounding up the middle all day on the same type of play, and it was executed with a good read by Cam, and good blocking by our WR corp.




You can see them both here: LINK

Cam's at the :10sec mark, and McCaleb's at the :38sec mark.
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 3:48 pm
Posted by WM88
West Monroe
Member since Aug 2004
1598 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

because of a few reasons:


4) their WRs did an awesome job blocking.

It would've been nice to try some different things rather than 6 in the box all day.
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 3:48 pm
Posted by jberg46
The Swamps
Member since Oct 2010
172 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 4:16 pm to
Okay first of all you are wrong on your image. To depict the picture above, your image would have to look more along the lines of this:
[URL=LINK ]
and to stop it AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE, we would have to have done something along these lines:
[URL=LINK ]
Of course Chavis could have probably thought of a slight more effective way to do this, but that would be a basic man to man blitz in that formation that with PROPER TACKLING, I'm sure we could've stopped Cam Newton a la Auburn's first possession.

Using your image in the picture...here is another way to stop the motion play.
[URL=LINK ]
Again...Chavis could've probably tinkered with this solution a little and probably been a lot more successful with PROPER TACKLING.

He may not have been able to stack the box due to Newton's breakaway ability, but he sure could've blitzed all day long. I would have much rather see Newton beat us with his arm than with his legs, a la inaccurate 4th down pass to a wide open receiver.

Posted by jberg46
The Swamps
Member since Oct 2010
172 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 4:20 pm to
[/URL][/img]

[/URL][/img]

[/URL][/img]
Posted by jberg46
The Swamps
Member since Oct 2010
172 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 4:21 pm to
ANYBODY WANNA TELL ME HOW TO POST IMAGES THROUGH IMAGESHACK?!

I JUST DID THE BIGGEST PICTURE FAIL EVER..
Posted by jberg46
The Swamps
Member since Oct 2010
172 posts
Posted on 10/26/10 at 4:24 pm to
I'm trying guys. I know, I know. Epic fail. Once I figure out how to post pictures through imageshack or through anything I will repost it.
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