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Only citizens are included in voter representation in EU and USA should follow suit

Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:02 pm
Posted by LSU7096
Member since May 2004
2888 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:02 pm
In the European Union, the inclusion of non-citizens in national censuses does not directly translate to representation in government in the same way it might in some other countries, like the United States, where census data impacts apportionment of legislative seats. The EU’s census framework, primarily governed by Regulation (EC) No 763/2008, mandates that member states count the “usual resident population”—including citizens, legally residing non-citizens, and often undocumented immigrants—for statistical purposes like resource allocation, urban planning, and policy development. However, the link between census data and political representation varies significantly across EU countries due to differences in their political systems and constitutional frameworks.

General Overview

Census Data and Representation: In most EU countries, census data is used to understand population dynamics but is not directly tied to apportioning seats in national parliaments or other governing bodies. Electoral representation is typically based on voter eligibility, which is often restricted to citizens (and sometimes EU citizens for certain local or European elections). Non-citizens, even if counted in the census, generally do not factor into determining the number of parliamentary seats or electoral districts.

Non-Citizens’ Voting Rights: Non-citizens (non-EU nationals) typically cannot vote in national elections across EU countries, meaning their inclusion in the census does not grant them direct political representation. However, EU citizens residing in another EU country can vote and stand in local and European Parliament elections under the Maastricht Treaty (1992), but this is unrelated to census counts.

Purpose of Including Non-Citizens: The inclusion of non-citizens in the census is primarily for statistical accuracy, ensuring governments have a complete picture of the resident population for planning purposes (e.g., healthcare, education, infrastructure). It does not automatically confer political rights or influence representation in government.

Country-Specific Variations

While the EU provides a standardized framework for censuses, how population data influences representation depends on national laws:

Germany: Census data (or register-based population counts) is used for statistical purposes, but parliamentary seat allocation is based on federal election laws, which consider only eligible voters (citizens). Non-citizens, though counted, do not affect Bundestag representation.
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France: The census counts all residents, but political representation (e.g., seats in the National Assembly) is based on electoral rolls, which exclude non-citizens. Population size may influence administrative boundaries, but citizenship is the key criterion for voting and representation.

Spain: The padrón (municipal register) counts all residents, including non-citizens, and is used for local resource allocation. However, only Spanish citizens (and EU citizens for local elections) influence representation in the national parliament.

Netherlands: Uses a register-based system that includes non-citizens, but electoral districts and parliamentary representation are determined by citizen voters, not total population.

Sweden: Similar to other Nordic countries, Sweden counts all residents in its population registers, but only citizens vote in national elections, so non-citizens do not impact Riksdag (parliament) representation.

Exceptions and Nuances

Local Representation: In some EU countries, the total population (including non-citizens) may indirectly influence local governance, as municipal funding or council sizes can be tied to population counts. For example, in Spain, the padrón affects local budgets, which can shape local political priorities, but this does not equate to non-citizens having voting power or direct representation.

Undocumented Immigrants: While EU regulations encourage counting all residents, undocumented non-citizens are often underreported due to practical challenges. Their inclusion in the census has no bearing on political representation, as they lack voting rights across all EU countries.

EU-Level Representation: The European Parliament allocates seats to member states based on population size, which includes non-citizens as per census data. However, this is a high-level allocation, and actual representation (via elected MEPs) depends on citizen voters, not the total population.

Comparison to Other Contexts

Unlike the U.S., where census counts (including non-citizens) directly determine congressional apportionment and electoral votes, EU countries generally prioritize citizenship for political representation. The EU’s census framework focuses on statistical comprehensiveness rather than political apportionment. Non-citizens contribute to the demographic data that informs policy but do not have a direct role in shaping electoral outcomes or government representation.

Conclusion

In summary, while non-citizens are legally counted in EU censuses under EU regulations, this does not grant them representation in government, as voting rights and electoral systems are typically restricted to citizens (and EU citizens for specific elections). Census data may influence resource allocation or local governance indirectly, but political representation remains tied to citizenship, not total population. If you’d like details on a specific EU country or a deeper dive into a particular aspect, let me know!
Posted by Midget Death Squad
Meme Magic
Member since Oct 2008
27993 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:03 pm to
How this is even controversial is beyond me. Liberals are retarded
Posted by Laugh More
Member since Jan 2022
3302 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:09 pm to
I totally agree with not letting non citizens anywhere near a voting booth.

I don’t, however, like the argument “that since another country does it a smart way, we should do it too.”

This leaves open the doors for idiots to use that same argument against the 2nd Amendment and the Electoral College.

These arguments should be made irrespective of “the other guys” doing it a certain way. Common Sense makes sense universally…or should
This post was edited on 8/8/25 at 12:34 am
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
124711 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:42 pm to
Here’s some international law that Supreme Court will not get excited about.
Posted by Neutral Underground
Member since Mar 2024
2647 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:53 pm to
Good. I agree. Only Americans should br counted on the census. I have to say Trump is taking names and kickin- ar?e. Best President in my lifetime by far.
Posted by LSUSkip
Central, LA
Member since Jul 2012
24717 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 3:56 pm to
I think we should go back to property owners, (still have to be resident citizens)
Posted by thetempleowl
dallas, tx
Member since Jul 2008
15895 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 4:05 pm to
quote:

How this is even controversial is beyond me.


If you were a Democrat and you were about to see the number of seats in the house in blue states that are about to be lost, you would find this beyond controversial and literally Hitler.

I think trump tried this is his first term and a judge said all people had to count. Of course that judge likely was an activist judge, but still...
Posted by Marco_Duo
Member since Aug 2025
46 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 4:22 pm to
quote:

Only citizens are included in voter representation in EU and USA should follow suit
Agreed.

So let’s get busy and amend Section 2 of the 14th.

Because that is the only legitimate way to achieve that result here in the good old US of A.
Posted by SFCSaint77
Northshore
Member since Dec 2019
355 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 5:34 pm to
What is the argument for counting non-citizens? Legit curious how it can be justified.
Posted by Marco_Duo
Member since Aug 2025
46 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 6:06 pm to
quote:

What is the argument for counting non-citizens? Legit curious how it can be justified
Policy or existing law? Counting alone or use for apportionment?

There are dozens of policy reasons to count everyone, starting with allocation of governmental resources. Harder to justify a policy of including illegals FOR PURPOSES OF APPORTIONMENT. I see no valid policy that would justify it.

The short answer, however, is that the 14th Amendment clearly and unequivocally requires that they be included for apportionment.

Until the Constitution is amended, we are stuck with it. All the whining in the world will not change that.
Posted by Wednesday
Member since Aug 2017
16933 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 6:15 pm to
It’s in our constitution that you have to count everyone breathing air for purposes of apportionment. It’s stupid, but that’s what it says in the 14th Amendment- which is the most gobblygook amendment that was drafted in a hurry, and didn’t consider the long view.

They should have just changed the “free persons” language to citizens bc they made non-free persons citizens in the same amendment.

Crazytown
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
79634 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 6:16 pm to
If anyone and everyone is included then there is nothing important or special about being a citizen.
Posted by 5WFSHR
Montgomery, AL
Member since Apr 2024
2619 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 6:35 pm to
Democrats want to count illegal aliens. Surprise, surprise.

What do democrats call “illegal aliens” to seem empathetic… besides “future democrats”? Lemme know.
Posted by rocksteady
Member since Sep 2013
2323 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 6:46 pm to
quote:

In summary, while non-citizens are legally counted in EU censuses under EU regulations, this does not grant them representation in government, as voting rights and electoral systems are typically restricted to citizens


EU will change that real quick if everyone tries to vote for no more immigrants
Posted by LSU7096
Member since May 2004
2888 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 7:19 pm to
I agree with only property owners and persons who actually pay income tax.

40% of households do not pay taxes (76 million) Americans who not contribute.
Posted by Bass Tiger
Member since Oct 2014
53528 posts
Posted on 8/7/25 at 7:21 pm to
Why would any nation who claims to be the "shining light on the hill" allow non citizens to have any weight in their federal, state or local elections? Pure insanity.
This post was edited on 8/7/25 at 7:23 pm
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