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Message
re: 12 Year Old Girl with BPD
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:04 pm to Leotiger725
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:04 pm to Leotiger725
quote:
was just diagnosed with BPD.
I have known bipolar people and they dont act like that. The behavior you described is textbook psychopath.
I worked with a person like this and everyone hated him. He was an ethnic person and all similar ethnic coworkers hated him as much as anybody because he had screwed them over just as badly as anyone else. He eventually got sick enough he had to quit work and nobody went to see him.
My point here is that this person acted similarly to your daughter and had zero remorse for anybody he screwed. Lying was just a means to an end.
Unfortunately I have no advice for you.
2
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:42 pm to GetmorewithLes
quote:
I have known bipolar people and they dont act like that.
For fricks sake HE’S NOT SAYING SHE’S BIPOLAR
Posted on 5/3/24 at 7:34 am to tunechi
Right. This is Borderline Personality Trait Disorder.
There are similarities between Borderline and Bi-Polar. My Borderline ex-wife was misdiagnosed once as Bi-Polar.
In Borderlines, there is a strong sense/ fear of abandonment. This may be perceived or from an actual traumatic life eperience early early in life.
Professionals aren't sure if Borderline is inherited or learned behavior.
But - my ex is about as emotionally developed as a 14 yr old girl, with manic tendencies, extreme highs and lows.
Here's what you get -
+ Extreme pettiness. Lies. Lack of accountability. I mean - zero, Everything is someone else's fault. And the stuff they complain about is .... 1st grade level stuff
+ Hatred. Turning on you. The ability to sever even the most precious relationaship... on a Tuesday over - you're noteeven sure. But they can cut you off and never speak to you again. Sort of. They will come back to terrorize you later. They'll pull the sweetheart best friend routine....
+ No boundaries or respect for anyone's money. They don't care that you set a permanent rule. They'll figure out a way to break it and they don't mind showing up with no money and someone else paying
+ Horrible with money. No matter how many times they have their lights turned off, or get threatened to have a vehicle re-possessed - they can't keep it together. Someone can sit down with them and financially get them straightened out... in less than 6 months, they're in trouble again.
+ They love new relationships. It almost puts them on cloud 9.
+ The Triangle game.
+ They've been telling everyone how much of an a-hole you are. So they jump you and get a fight started right before you see family. Or while you're on your way to family thing. You get out of the car al angry and pissed. You get short with someone there... "see? I told you he was a f'n a-hole".... and you just stepped in it.
+ Manipulation
+ You aren't helping them enough. I heard this 400 million times.
+ And last and this is the hardest one - I really hope you grasp this part cause I had to learn it the hard way -
There is NO conversation you can have. No special wording. THere are no "homerun phrases" that get through. You can't write a letter... none of that.
No matter how you feel like a certain conversation went, you will be revisiting this very same issue. There is no changing their behavior.
You are not getting through. There is sooo much going on inside them that most of us cannot understand.
You may see them "on their best behavior" for a period of time, or you may have a new best friend (which is wild) but don't worry. In 90 days or less, you will see it all over again.
You can literally take a calendar and understand that this monster is comng back.
There are similarities between Borderline and Bi-Polar. My Borderline ex-wife was misdiagnosed once as Bi-Polar.
In Borderlines, there is a strong sense/ fear of abandonment. This may be perceived or from an actual traumatic life eperience early early in life.
Professionals aren't sure if Borderline is inherited or learned behavior.
But - my ex is about as emotionally developed as a 14 yr old girl, with manic tendencies, extreme highs and lows.
Here's what you get -
+ Extreme pettiness. Lies. Lack of accountability. I mean - zero, Everything is someone else's fault. And the stuff they complain about is .... 1st grade level stuff
+ Hatred. Turning on you. The ability to sever even the most precious relationaship... on a Tuesday over - you're noteeven sure. But they can cut you off and never speak to you again. Sort of. They will come back to terrorize you later. They'll pull the sweetheart best friend routine....
+ No boundaries or respect for anyone's money. They don't care that you set a permanent rule. They'll figure out a way to break it and they don't mind showing up with no money and someone else paying
+ Horrible with money. No matter how many times they have their lights turned off, or get threatened to have a vehicle re-possessed - they can't keep it together. Someone can sit down with them and financially get them straightened out... in less than 6 months, they're in trouble again.
+ They love new relationships. It almost puts them on cloud 9.
+ The Triangle game.
+ They've been telling everyone how much of an a-hole you are. So they jump you and get a fight started right before you see family. Or while you're on your way to family thing. You get out of the car al angry and pissed. You get short with someone there... "see? I told you he was a f'n a-hole".... and you just stepped in it.
+ Manipulation
+ You aren't helping them enough. I heard this 400 million times.
+ And last and this is the hardest one - I really hope you grasp this part cause I had to learn it the hard way -
There is NO conversation you can have. No special wording. THere are no "homerun phrases" that get through. You can't write a letter... none of that.
No matter how you feel like a certain conversation went, you will be revisiting this very same issue. There is no changing their behavior.
You are not getting through. There is sooo much going on inside them that most of us cannot understand.
You may see them "on their best behavior" for a period of time, or you may have a new best friend (which is wild) but don't worry. In 90 days or less, you will see it all over again.
You can literally take a calendar and understand that this monster is comng back.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 7:55 am to wheelz007
Everything you said is 100% accurate. This perfectly described my mother. It's pretty cyclical. She makes amends right before Thanksgiving so she has family to be around for the holidays. It lasts through her birthday in the spring time. Around June, she finds a reason to get pissed off or feel slighted by me and my sister, and then doesn't speak to us again until November. Like clockwork.
Her jobs come and go. She always manages to get a good-paying job and do well for a while, then she quits over some perceived slight and runs out of money, almost gets evicted, and will start a gofundme or some shite. She'll ask me and my siblings for money, no one gives her any, and then she magically lands back on her feet again with a good job. Lather, rinse, repeat.
She's in her mid-60s now, so I don't know how much longer she'll be able to swing decent jobs.
If it weren't for my son, I would have cut her off completely and walked away for good. But he loves her and enjoys spending time with her, so we visit with her sparingly when she's on one of her "good" spells. I don't leave him alone with her, though. I don't trust her enough to do that. She's very personable and outgoing and friendly and people who don't truly know her, love her and think she's great. I imagine the first time you hear one of her sad stories that she tells for sympathy, it's pretty compelling. She's a compilation of BPD mother types, but her most prevalent is 'waif.' Her dad died when she was a toddler, so I guess that's where all of this stems from.
This is hard shite for people to go though, but I appreciate hearing everyone else's experiences. Having a close family member with BPD is life changing for all involved.
Her jobs come and go. She always manages to get a good-paying job and do well for a while, then she quits over some perceived slight and runs out of money, almost gets evicted, and will start a gofundme or some shite. She'll ask me and my siblings for money, no one gives her any, and then she magically lands back on her feet again with a good job. Lather, rinse, repeat.
She's in her mid-60s now, so I don't know how much longer she'll be able to swing decent jobs.
If it weren't for my son, I would have cut her off completely and walked away for good. But he loves her and enjoys spending time with her, so we visit with her sparingly when she's on one of her "good" spells. I don't leave him alone with her, though. I don't trust her enough to do that. She's very personable and outgoing and friendly and people who don't truly know her, love her and think she's great. I imagine the first time you hear one of her sad stories that she tells for sympathy, it's pretty compelling. She's a compilation of BPD mother types, but her most prevalent is 'waif.' Her dad died when she was a toddler, so I guess that's where all of this stems from.
This is hard shite for people to go though, but I appreciate hearing everyone else's experiences. Having a close family member with BPD is life changing for all involved.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 8:22 am to wheelz007
quote:
And last and this is the hardest one - I really hope you grasp this part cause I had to learn it the hard way -
There is NO conversation you can have. No special wording. THere are no "homerun phrases" that get through. You can't write a letter... none of that.
This is the hardest truth. Any vulnerability you display when trying to break through to them will be thrown in your face during a future fight in the most hurtful way possible.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 8:41 am to Leotiger725
Read the Road less Traveled.
Find a really really good physiotherapist
Find a really really good physiotherapist
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:01 am to Leotiger725
BPD is typically from some type of abuse. Have you addressed that? Usually that is step 1.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:03 am to AcadiaParishTiger
quote:
BPD is typically from some type of abuse. Have you addressed that? Usually that is step 1.
That’s not necessarily true. While some may report abuse as a trigger, not everyone who has BPD was abused. And not everyone who has been abused develops BPD.
And honestly, it’s likely not something she would talk seriously about if it happened until she is consistently in therapy and has developed a strong rapport.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:06 am to BluegrassBelle
Most studies show that there’s about 50% of people with BPD come from some type of abusive environment.
Someone that develops it that young, likely experienced something traumatic early in life.
Someone that develops it that young, likely experienced something traumatic early in life.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:07 am to GetmorewithLes
quote:
I have known bipolar people and they dont act like that. The behavior you described is textbook psychopath.
Bipolar and BPD are two different disorders. And yes, people with BPD at the intensity we’re discussing do act like that.
This is part of the DSM-5 criteria for diagnosing BPD
quote:
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by 5 (or more) of the following:
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behaviour covered in criterion 5.
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. Impulsivity in at least 2 areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behaviour covered in criterion 5.
Recurrent suicidal behaviour, gestures or threats, or self-mutilating behaviour.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:09 am to AcadiaParishTiger
Yep. Like I was saying earlier -
Professionals can't say for sure if Borderline is inherited or learned behavior.
Studies reveal it's case by case I think.
Professionals can't say for sure if Borderline is inherited or learned behavior.
Studies reveal it's case by case I think.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:10 am to Leotiger725
A 12 year-old shouldn’t be diagnosed with a personality disorder. Find a therapist with a lot of training and experience in trauma treatment. Medications are unlikely to help, especially alone. DBT could be helpful as someone else suggested, but I highly recommend getting her into a Linehan modeled program and not just individual therapy. EMDR and IFS could also help once she is stabilized. Please get that BPD label removed.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:15 am to AcadiaParishTiger
quote:
Most studies show that there’s about 50% of people with BPD come from some type of abusive environment.
Someone that develops it that young, likely experienced something traumatic early in life.
And there’s 50% that don’t (given your statistic).
Going in with the preconceived notion that it’s caused by abuse without a legitimate disclosure of abuse can cause significant issues in treatment. Especially with the high rate of false accusations from someone with BPD because of the manipulation/attention seeking piece of this disorder.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:24 am to BluegrassBelle
BPD is a disorder based in insecure attachment. There are things that lead to attachment issues other than clear abuse. Neglect, insecure home environments, care taker substance abuse, witnessing violence in the home and/or community, bullying, etc are all factors that need to be considered. The diagnosis really isn’t the important thing here, and labelling a pre teen as “Borderline” is malpractice.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:26 am to LSU Patrick
quote:
The diagnosis really isn’t the important thing here, and labelling a pre teen as “Borderline” is malpractice.
Gotta agree to disagree here. DSM allows diagnosis as young as 12 with symptoms persistent for at least a year. It’s rare but it happens.
Unless she has disclosed trauma that indicates a diagnosis of something like PTSD (or witnesses can verify that she experienced that trauma), then that’s what you have to roll with when behavior is that extreme and longer term treatment is needed.
This post was edited on 5/3/24 at 9:28 am
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:32 am to BluegrassBelle
Personally Disorders are based in rigid patterns of thought, emotion, and behavior that persist into adulthood. The idea that a 12 year-old has a personality disorder flies in the face of all current understanding of human development. It is asinine and irresponsible.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:34 am to LSU Patrick
quote:
Personally Disorders are based in rigid patterns of thought, emotion, and behavior that persist into adulthood. The idea that a 12 year-old has a personality disorder flies in the face of all current understanding of human development. It is asinine and irresponsible.
Again, you have to go with what the client is presenting. What would you diagnose her with when there’s been no disclosure of abuse/neglect present?
It’d be even more irresponsible to pretend that this isn’t possible in a 12 year old.
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:35 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Gotta agree to disagree here. DSM allows diagnosis as young as 12 with symptoms persistent for at least a year. It’s rare but it happens.
i think the issue isnt whether or not its an accurate diagnosis, but rather the repercussions that come with a BPD diagnosis later in life. a pre-teen exhibiting BPD behaviors could and should absolutely be treated as if they have the diagnosis, but the minute it gets put pen to paper as a borderline personality diagnosis, there are potential life-long impacts even if it turns out maybe they DONT have BPD. lots of pre-teens and teens have some pretty significant emotional problems that they work through to become very normal adults.
but to your point, yes i think it is appropriate that a doctor at least TREATS them as if they are in fact borderline
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:39 am to Sam Quint
quote:
i think the issue isnt whether or not its an accurate diagnosis, but rather the repercussions that come with a BPD diagnosis later in life. a pre-teen exhibiting BPD behaviors could and should absolutely be treated as if they have the diagnosis, but the minute it gets put pen to paper as a borderline personality diagnosis, there are potential life-long impacts even if it turns out maybe they DONT have BPD. lots of pre-teens and teens have some pretty significant emotional problems that they work through to become very normal adults.
but to your point, yes i think it is appropriate that a doctor at least TREATS them as if they are in fact borderline
And that’s understandable but that diagnosis can be changed as symptoms/presentation change. IMO it’s a similar circumstance as kids being diagnosed with ODD at a younger age when it’s actually a personality disorder later.
I think it’s also worth noting that without the BPD diagnosis, longer care treatment could be more difficult to obtain which can definitely run counter to the concern about the label itself.
This post was edited on 5/3/24 at 9:42 am
Posted on 5/3/24 at 9:47 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
but that diagnosis can be changed as symptoms/presentation change
i am basing this totally on my own anecdotal experience, but i know that in order to receive a security clearance for the government, you have to answer "have you ever had a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder". there isnt really any wiggle room for whether or not that diagnosis was changed. again, i understand what you're saying, i just think doctors should be very, very careful with such a diagnosis on a child.
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