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Posted on 3/30/24 at 1:43 pm to Unsettled
quote:
I don’t know enough to really ask the right questions so if you have any other insight that would be helpful please give it.
Which one is closest to you?
We've recently run into a few friends who all complain their daughter's married people they met at college and moved to their spouses hometown.
In this case they wanted to send their kids away for some "life experience " and they got more back then they bargained for.
In these cases they are pretty far from them. Their mothers always bring it up.
Something to think about maybe?
Good Luck.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 9:55 am to Unsettled
I wouldn’t sleep on USCe. Columbia is within 1.5 hrs of Greenville, Charlotte and Charleston. There is a lot going on in these cities from both a legal and corporate standpoint. Also, the legal community in SC is pretty tight and many are USCe alumni.
Posted on 3/31/24 at 4:23 pm to Unsettled
Is your daughter looking at a glamorous career in billboard PI law? If so, we’re your state. Honestly, if she wants to work at one of those firms, she could just go to SU Law and possibly pass the bar exam.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:50 am to Unsettled
There are a lot of questions here, some explicit, some implicit.
1. As to the explicit question, as someone who took a full scholarship to LSU law, I've never regretted that decision for a second. The degree of financial freedom I had in my 20s and 30s was unparalleled compared to my peers who had significant loans from higher-ranked schools. This gave me a lot more opportunity to take the jobs I wanted, which is important because...
2. being a lawyer sucks. A lot of people hear this and put it down to whining or just shop talk but the objective numbers bear it out. It is a provably unpleasant profession as compared to its near-peer professions. And, although I have nothing to prove this part, I feel like this is more true of first-generation lawyers as opposed to people in the family business. I'm not going to rehash this discussion here but I would encourage you and your daughter to look into this. (Of course there are exceptions. Everyone thinks they'll be the exception, just like everyone thinks they'll draw a 6 sitting on 15.) Anyway, as a result,
3. A large number of law school grads don't end up practicing law, or do so for a very short period of time. I was *shocked* to arrive at my first LS reunion (5 years) and discover how many classmates were not actually attorneys, already. This was particularly true of the women but included several men as well. Law schools lie about this by the way. They spin it as showing how malleable law degrees can be, and how many options you'll have. That's not really what's going on.
4. LSU is provincial, but every law school is provincial. That being said hiring lawyers aren't idiots, and if you really do have top grades and law review from LSU (or almost any school) you'll be fine and your degree will be portable. The geographic limitations really weigh on people falling under the top ten percent.
5. I would often advise someone to paralegal or be a runner for a year. If you do that and still want to be a lawyer, Godspeed. I'm not sure that applies here as she has a full scholarship offer right now, and there's no guarantee that will carry over to next year. (Of course that cuts both ways, she could work a year or two, reapply, and end up getting better scholarship offers from UT or USC).
6. Why LSU? Why Louisiana? Has she ever even been to Baton Rouge? A scholarship is great but I'm not sure that, standing alone, is a sufficient reason for LSU.
1. As to the explicit question, as someone who took a full scholarship to LSU law, I've never regretted that decision for a second. The degree of financial freedom I had in my 20s and 30s was unparalleled compared to my peers who had significant loans from higher-ranked schools. This gave me a lot more opportunity to take the jobs I wanted, which is important because...
2. being a lawyer sucks. A lot of people hear this and put it down to whining or just shop talk but the objective numbers bear it out. It is a provably unpleasant profession as compared to its near-peer professions. And, although I have nothing to prove this part, I feel like this is more true of first-generation lawyers as opposed to people in the family business. I'm not going to rehash this discussion here but I would encourage you and your daughter to look into this. (Of course there are exceptions. Everyone thinks they'll be the exception, just like everyone thinks they'll draw a 6 sitting on 15.) Anyway, as a result,
3. A large number of law school grads don't end up practicing law, or do so for a very short period of time. I was *shocked* to arrive at my first LS reunion (5 years) and discover how many classmates were not actually attorneys, already. This was particularly true of the women but included several men as well. Law schools lie about this by the way. They spin it as showing how malleable law degrees can be, and how many options you'll have. That's not really what's going on.
4. LSU is provincial, but every law school is provincial. That being said hiring lawyers aren't idiots, and if you really do have top grades and law review from LSU (or almost any school) you'll be fine and your degree will be portable. The geographic limitations really weigh on people falling under the top ten percent.
5. I would often advise someone to paralegal or be a runner for a year. If you do that and still want to be a lawyer, Godspeed. I'm not sure that applies here as she has a full scholarship offer right now, and there's no guarantee that will carry over to next year. (Of course that cuts both ways, she could work a year or two, reapply, and end up getting better scholarship offers from UT or USC).
6. Why LSU? Why Louisiana? Has she ever even been to Baton Rouge? A scholarship is great but I'm not sure that, standing alone, is a sufficient reason for LSU.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 12:06 pm to Unsettled
I'm a law firm owner with about 21 employees. I say that to help provide context for the answers to your questions.
Everyone in law school is a hard worker and an overachiever. Being at the top of your class in college does not equate to being at the top of your class in law school. If she goes to a top-tier law school, she'll be running a race with a whole class of track champions. Was her LSAT >160?
Not great for anyone who doesn't graduate at the top of their class.
I would tell her to go to a bigger school if she wants to live somewhere other than Louisiana. But to answer your question, 60k a year is not a lot of money, but for a 20-something right out of school, it is fine.
Where she clerks while in school is of the utmost importance. Does she want to work in a big elevator law firm on the 40th floor somewhere? Does she want to open her own firm one day? Does she want to litigate? Does she prefer transactional work? Does she have a charming personality such that she would be able to generate her own work? All of these are things she needs to be considering.
Successful PI lawyers and successful criminal lawyers make the most money in Louisiana in small firms. Partners at the largest firms can make what PI lawyers make, but it takes them 15 years or so to get there.
If money is all she's after, she needs to consider that when it comes to what firms she clerks at. She'll make way less money clerking for a firm like mine (I pay $15 an hour, whereas the big firms pay closer to $30 or even $45 out of state), but I start my lawyers at $120k per year, and my highest-paid lawyers make seven figures a year.
Long story short, she needs a road map to what she wants, and pick firms to clerk at that will get her there. Too many students pick the highest paying clerking jobs, then don't have the resume that fits the job they really want. Short-sighted all the way around.
There are three types of lawyers and only three types:
1. Finders. These are the rain-makers. They can generate work, don't eat with their feet, can play golf, tell good jokes, play cards, and are just as at home at Ruth's Chris or the country club as they are in the courtroom. These are your highest-earning lawyers. Finders make up about 10% of the lawyers.
2. Minders. These are the lawyer who have good people skills but aren't the country club and Ruth's Chris schoozers. They may not have the in-person charm or, frankly, the charisma to hold court at a white-linen dinner with clients. BUT, they can talk on the phone with clients and ask clients how their kid's t-ball game went. Successful minders are the folks who make notes in their CRM about the clients to ask them about later, like vacations, hobbies, etc. In other words, they can "mind" the clients once they are originated and brought into the firm. These are the lawyers the partners trust calling and emailing clients, but they aren't going to get the day off to go golfing or invited to long Friday lunches at Ruth's Chris. They are the middle-of-the-road earners. Minders make up about 40% of the lawyers.
3. Grinders. These are the lawyers who get stuck in 10x10 offices for life. They are the workhorses of a law firm. They draft pleadings, attend depositions of non-clients, do legal research, and write legal memos for the Finders and Minders in the firm. They are the lowest rung of earners because they are the most easily replaced. Grinders make up about 50% of the lawyers.
Is your daughter a finder, minder, or grinder? That will answer a lot of your questions about what kind of earner she will be. If she's a grinder, she needs to pick a niche line of work to be a decent earner... something like intellectual property, maritime defense, or the like.
The worst earners are the grinders who try to open their own firm. They ultimately fail and end up going back to another firm to do some grinding for a finder or minder.
Ponder these things, and good luck to her!
quote:
She is a hard worker and an overachiever so I know she will graduate near the top of any class she attends.
Everyone in law school is a hard worker and an overachiever. Being at the top of your class in college does not equate to being at the top of your class in law school. If she goes to a top-tier law school, she'll be running a race with a whole class of track champions. Was her LSAT >160?
quote:
1. What is the job market like for lawyers in Louisiana for a kid with good grades but no contacts.
Not great for anyone who doesn't graduate at the top of their class.
quote:
2. What is life like for a professional living and working in Louisiana? Lawyers do ok money wise but nothing like doctors and they usually start at 60-70k a year. Is it pleasant to live in LA on 65k a year??
I would tell her to go to a bigger school if she wants to live somewhere other than Louisiana. But to answer your question, 60k a year is not a lot of money, but for a 20-something right out of school, it is fine.
quote:
3. I don’t know enough to really ask the right questions so if you have any other insight that would be helpful please give it.
Where she clerks while in school is of the utmost importance. Does she want to work in a big elevator law firm on the 40th floor somewhere? Does she want to open her own firm one day? Does she want to litigate? Does she prefer transactional work? Does she have a charming personality such that she would be able to generate her own work? All of these are things she needs to be considering.
Successful PI lawyers and successful criminal lawyers make the most money in Louisiana in small firms. Partners at the largest firms can make what PI lawyers make, but it takes them 15 years or so to get there.
If money is all she's after, she needs to consider that when it comes to what firms she clerks at. She'll make way less money clerking for a firm like mine (I pay $15 an hour, whereas the big firms pay closer to $30 or even $45 out of state), but I start my lawyers at $120k per year, and my highest-paid lawyers make seven figures a year.
Long story short, she needs a road map to what she wants, and pick firms to clerk at that will get her there. Too many students pick the highest paying clerking jobs, then don't have the resume that fits the job they really want. Short-sighted all the way around.
There are three types of lawyers and only three types:
1. Finders. These are the rain-makers. They can generate work, don't eat with their feet, can play golf, tell good jokes, play cards, and are just as at home at Ruth's Chris or the country club as they are in the courtroom. These are your highest-earning lawyers. Finders make up about 10% of the lawyers.
2. Minders. These are the lawyer who have good people skills but aren't the country club and Ruth's Chris schoozers. They may not have the in-person charm or, frankly, the charisma to hold court at a white-linen dinner with clients. BUT, they can talk on the phone with clients and ask clients how their kid's t-ball game went. Successful minders are the folks who make notes in their CRM about the clients to ask them about later, like vacations, hobbies, etc. In other words, they can "mind" the clients once they are originated and brought into the firm. These are the lawyers the partners trust calling and emailing clients, but they aren't going to get the day off to go golfing or invited to long Friday lunches at Ruth's Chris. They are the middle-of-the-road earners. Minders make up about 40% of the lawyers.
3. Grinders. These are the lawyers who get stuck in 10x10 offices for life. They are the workhorses of a law firm. They draft pleadings, attend depositions of non-clients, do legal research, and write legal memos for the Finders and Minders in the firm. They are the lowest rung of earners because they are the most easily replaced. Grinders make up about 50% of the lawyers.
Is your daughter a finder, minder, or grinder? That will answer a lot of your questions about what kind of earner she will be. If she's a grinder, she needs to pick a niche line of work to be a decent earner... something like intellectual property, maritime defense, or the like.
The worst earners are the grinders who try to open their own firm. They ultimately fail and end up going back to another firm to do some grinding for a finder or minder.
Ponder these things, and good luck to her!
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 4/3/24 at 3:11 pm to Unsettled
If she wants to practice law in Louisiana, LSU is your best choice. If she wants to practice elsewhere, LSU isn't the best choice.
Posted on 4/16/24 at 6:58 am to Unsettled
LSU if she wants to stay in-state, anywhere else if not. Could make an argument for Tulane if she wants to be in Nola because Tulane gives some good connections there. However, LSU runs the state outside of Nola as far as connections go.
If she wants to go out of state, go to the best one she can get into for reasonable money. Big market cities/firms are going to want to hire from T14 schools so she wants to shoot for those. Although, those big firms burn people out quick. Unless she’s an outlier, the standard biglaw experience is make a ton of money for 3-5 to pay off all your loans, buy a house, save some $$, and then bounce for a better quality of life job. Biglaw is notoriously unfulfilling for most.
If she wants to go out of state, go to the best one she can get into for reasonable money. Big market cities/firms are going to want to hire from T14 schools so she wants to shoot for those. Although, those big firms burn people out quick. Unless she’s an outlier, the standard biglaw experience is make a ton of money for 3-5 to pay off all your loans, buy a house, save some $$, and then bounce for a better quality of life job. Biglaw is notoriously unfulfilling for most.
Posted on 4/16/24 at 8:07 am to Unsettled
Go to the school where they give her the most $.
If she’s top 5% then she may have a shot at biglaw. Otherwise she’s looking at $100k/yr unless she goes to a high end boutique but these are very specialized (e.g. patent).
I’ve done boutiques right out of school and then biglaw the last 10 yrs. My advice is to seek a different career. I’m not joking.
If she’s top 5% then she may have a shot at biglaw. Otherwise she’s looking at $100k/yr unless she goes to a high end boutique but these are very specialized (e.g. patent).
I’ve done boutiques right out of school and then biglaw the last 10 yrs. My advice is to seek a different career. I’m not joking.
This post was edited on 4/16/24 at 8:08 am
Posted on 4/16/24 at 9:12 am to Unsettled
quote:
Both of these schools have given her a 75% tuition scholarship which will leave her paying 35k in total for the three years.
This is the part of the game nobody discuses. The schools offer those upfront scholarships enticing enrollment knowing the forced curve ensures only a select few will achieve the grades necessary to qualify for renewal. Reality doesn’t set in until the first semester ends and the student realizes she’s trapped at full price.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 11:25 pm to Unsettled
She can take the first year at LSU for free then transfer to one of the other schools.
Posted on 4/26/24 at 6:55 pm to Unsettled
Okay...the plus for LSU is being the state capitol..contacts etc if she goes there will probably not leave ....
Posted on 4/27/24 at 7:20 am to Unsettled
I don’t know much about Louisiana law market but I do know these facts because Mississippi is similar
1. State is losing population
2. State is full of “billboard” attorneys
3. Its most likely a good ol boy type system where you need contacts and the “I knew your daddy come to my firm for a job if you need one” type stuff to really reach the higher levels
It may depend on what type of law she wants to pursue. Criminal? Personal injury? Corporate? Etc
I’d advise to stay closer to home and go where the population and economy is doing well. With growth comes increased demand for services. In places like Louisiana where growth is stagnant and population declining, an outsider will have a difficult time getting clients from local established attorneys
1. State is losing population
2. State is full of “billboard” attorneys
3. Its most likely a good ol boy type system where you need contacts and the “I knew your daddy come to my firm for a job if you need one” type stuff to really reach the higher levels
It may depend on what type of law she wants to pursue. Criminal? Personal injury? Corporate? Etc
I’d advise to stay closer to home and go where the population and economy is doing well. With growth comes increased demand for services. In places like Louisiana where growth is stagnant and population declining, an outsider will have a difficult time getting clients from local established attorneys
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