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1
Posted on 7/5/23 at 10:32 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Nevertheless, I don't recall claims that the Russian Army engaged in ground combat operations in Ukraine during the Trump years.
Because they didn’t.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 10:32 am to doubleb
quote:The term was "promise".
a treaty?
Posted on 7/5/23 at 10:52 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
The term was "promise".
So who promised who what and when???
This post was edited on 7/5/23 at 10:58 am
Posted on 7/5/23 at 10:55 am to Zarkinletch416
quote:
President Trump said if he's reelected to office, he will end the Ukraine war in 24 hours.
President Trump is full of shite, and I will gladly take your money on 6 weeks. Six weeks after he is elected the war will still be going on. That means no signed cease fire, and no actual cease fire.
Remember, this is the guy who promised he was going to build the wall, AND Mexico was going to pay for it.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 10:58 am to DavidTheGnome
quote:
Any member of Congress can nominate him. There were ample boot lickers and hangers on elected more than willing to nominate him and then go back and campaign on it saying look what I did. He didn’t win because "his enemies wouldn’t allow it "? He has enemies on the Nobel committee?
Yes, a nomination is no big deal, but Trump definitely has enemies on the Nobel committee. Trump DID deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.
Two months ago I spent a few days in business meetings with one of the Nobel heirs, and he can’t stand Trump.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 11:19 am to imjustafatkid
Zelensky will never stop begging for money.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 11:27 am to CR4090
quote:
Zelensky will never stop begging for money.
Ben Franklin begged France for help. Jefferson Davis begged England for help. Churchill begged Roosevelt.
If I were Zelensky I’d beg too.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 11:33 am to Penrod
quote:
Remember, this is the guy who promised he was going to build the wall, AND Mexico was going to pay for it.
Money is fungible. What do you call all the money that Mexico was spending at THEIR southern border that they are not spending now?
They spent vast amounts of their fricking money that they are not spending now.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 1:04 pm to DesScorp
The Russians will win that, and Ukraine will not have the ability to stop an eventual annexation,
Posted on 7/5/23 at 3:05 pm to doubleb
quote:Again?
So who promised who what and when???
Really?
Okay, for at least the 50th time on this board ...
quote:
Mr. Baker picked up on Mr. Genscher’s formulation during a Feb. 9 visit to Moscow.
As an inducement for agreeing to German unification, Mr. Baker offered what he called “ironclad guarantees that NATO’s jurisdiction or forces would not move eastward,” according to a declassified memorandum recording the discussion.
“There would be no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east,” Mr. Baker told Mr. Gorbachev, coming back to the formula three times during the conversation. LINK
Posted on 7/5/23 at 3:45 pm to doubleb
quote:doubleb, I know you idolize Zelenskyy. But your Z-worship is hard to explain, because I suspect if you were Zelenskyy, you'd never have put Ukraine in this spot in the first place.
If I were Zelensky I’d beg too.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 3:53 pm to NC_Tigah
Baker was negotiating with the USSR about German unification and its status afterwards.
Agreements were made to not move certain NATO resources east into Germany.
Remember at this time there was still a Warsaw Pact and the USSR. But a year or do later the old USSR fell apart as did the Warsaw Pact. Nothing was negotiated about what would happen to the Warsaw Pact countries. Besides there no longer was a USSR.
Agreements were made to not move certain NATO resources east into Germany.
Remember at this time there was still a Warsaw Pact and the USSR. But a year or do later the old USSR fell apart as did the Warsaw Pact. Nothing was negotiated about what would happen to the Warsaw Pact countries. Besides there no longer was a USSR.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 4:04 pm to doubleb
quote:(1) There is no question re: "the promise" not to expand NATO eastward.
Remember at this time there was still a Warsaw Pact and the USSR. But a year or do later the old USSR fell apart as did the Warsaw Pact. Nothing was negotiated about what would happen to the Warsaw Pact countries. Besides there no longer was a USSR.
(2) You're waYyYyYyyy too trusting of Rice-Brzezinski revisionism of the Baker-Shevardnadze DOCUMENTED 1990-91 discussions
Posted on 7/5/23 at 4:38 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
(1) There is no question re: "the promise" not to expand NATO eastward.
I agree, Eastward meant East Germany. No one believed Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Hungary and all the rest would be independent a few years, and there would be no more USSR.
quote:
2) You're waYyYyYyyy too trusting of Rice-Brzezinski revisionism of the Baker-Shevardnadze DOCUMENTED 1990-91 discussions
So you thought the discussions were also about whether Warsaw Pact countries and Russian Republics too?? Why?
Posted on 7/5/23 at 4:48 pm to doubleb
quote:Why? Because the discussions absolutely included NATO expansion. The discussions are documented.
So you thought the discussions were also about whether Warsaw Pact countries and Russian Republics too?? Why?
Posted on 7/5/23 at 5:04 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Why? Because the discussions absolutely included NATO expansion. The discussions are documented.
NATO expansion into the Warsaw Pact??? No way.
NATO expansion into ExGermany? Yes
Posted on 7/5/23 at 5:15 pm to doubleb
quote:Did we break that guarantee?
NATO expansion into ExGermany? Yes
Regardless, you're listening to Zbigniew Brzezinski, Condi Rice BS. Here is the truth...
quote:
How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion
Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major and Woerner
On the 12 December 2017 the National Security Archive at George Washington University posted online 30 declassified US, Soviet, German, British and French documents revealing a torrent of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991. Some of the documents have been publicly available for several years, others have been revealed as a result of Freedom of Information requests for the study. See the briefing here.
US Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on 9 February 1990 was only part of a cascade of similar assurances.
...
The promises not to expand NATO only lasted until 1997, however, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary were invited into the alliance. In total, 13 Eastern European states have become NATO members since then.
Gorbachev and subsequently Putin have frequently bemoaned the West’s broken promise, with the latter insisting that it fundamentally undermined the fragile trust between an internationally retreating Russia and an ascendant United States.
Nonetheless, NATO and senior Western officials have continued to claim that there was no such official promise. None of the assurances of non-expansion were included in any treaty documents, as NATO makes clear in its official explanation on its website.
...
With the exception of RT in Russia and a handful of online opinion articles (see below), no major media outlet has so far reported on the release of these newly declassified documents. In ending the Cold War by breaking promises to Gorbachev, the attitude of the revived Russia of today should not come as a surprise.
Posted on 7/5/23 at 5:20 pm to doubleb
quote:
If I were Zelensky I’d beg too.
Or you could save your people's lives and negotiate peace instead of tying to pretend you're a Chruchill
Posted on 7/5/23 at 6:00 pm to Jack Carter
quote:
Or you could save your people's lives and negotiate peace instead of tying to pretend you're a Chruchill
Or you could surrender like the French and hope Putin shows mercy.
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