re: Ukraine Troops withdraw from Lysyschansk

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we're trying to place yet another NATO country at Russia's doorstep after we said we wouldn't then did it anyway in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland.

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The absolute nerve of sovereign nations establishing bilateral and consensual relationships with each other.

That type of overt hostility cannot be tolerated. Instead, affairs should be conducted by force and the unilateral wishes of whomever carries the biggest stick in the region.

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And those relationships have consequences. I'm not saying I agree with what Russia is doing, I'm telling you why they're doing it and the US/NATO is behind the decisions to expand.

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Everyone knows why they are doing it. The way you guys jump up and down on the NATO point is easily interpreted as finding Russia's actions reasonable or justifiable.

It also smacks of dishonesty, as it lends credence to the absolute absurdity of suggesting that the Scandinavian/Baltic states, Poland, Central Europe, or even Ukraine pose any threat whatsoever to Russia's national security. If this whole thing was about Russia being distrustful of Germany, then that would make some sense. But none of these nations involved have any history, ability or desire whatsoever to threaten Russia in any way.

Being used as a pawn by the West for several years is not a sign of a sovereign country. Also, when your neighbor has the power and the will to back shite up with force; you tread lightly. That is a reality since the beginning of civilizations

Quit trying to join NATO.

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Quit trying to join NATO.

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Ukraine will never be a member of NATO. That isn't even on the table at the moment.

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Families of the 40k dead Russians probably think so.

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Yes, that is also a consequence. What's your point?

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No, like I said. I interpret it that way because it is parroted constantly and most often said in a context that indicates the poster lends that justification credence.

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I don't know what point you're trying to make with your word salad.

This current conflict (or rather the extension of the 2014 conflict) has very little to do with NATO… Russia didn’t do shite when Finland joined, a country who has been a part of greater Russia in its past and has fought bloody wars with Russia to stay out of it.

Moar vanity fair photo shoots, stat!!

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Meh. Much of the Donbas region is pro-Russian. This would be like California invading Washington from the sea and Washington ceding Seattle after months of fighting with little movement. The longer this war goes on, the more and more likely it becomes that Ukraine surrenders most (if not all) of that region.

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I have a feeling that most of this could have been avoided if Zelensky ceded that territory to Russia, but his ego, along with the prospect billions of dollars in international aid and weapons, got in the way of his realistic logic.