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Started By
Message
re: The impending DEF shortage and why it's important
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:38 pm to EarlyCuyler3
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:38 pm to EarlyCuyler3
quote:
From a cursory reading of a few things, that doesn't seem to be true at all.
quote:
by EarlyCuyler3
1
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:38 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
In the past several years we’ve seen an absolute explosion of customers electing to rebuild their old pre-tier4 machines instead of replacing them with new. When I say rebuild, I mean they’ll take an old 988 loader, have us tear it down to the bare frame and rebuild it completely. You can still rebuild old engines without having to retrofit them with tier 4 emissions. A lot of folks are taking advantage of that loophole.
Doesn't surprise me a bit. I regularly see old as shite galion cranes getting rebuilt and repainted. Makes sense that CE has gone that way
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:38 pm to Darth_Vader
I was forced to delete the emissions control crap off of my RV because it broke repeatedly and either left me stranded or "derated" the engine to drive at unsafe speeds. Now I'm a law breaker because the government forced manufacturers to make this overcomplicated crap that doesn't work and you can't get parts for when it breaks.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:39 pm to Darth_Vader
I never heard of DEF until couple months ago
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:40 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
Tier 4 locomotives have been nothing but problems I understand. Besides being expensive.
Same in the earthmoving world. These systems are extremely complicated, expensive to make, expensive to maintain, and tend to be extremely delicate and subject to failure.
One of the biggest problems is the DEF itself. It’s actually extremely sensitive to sunlight. If you have a container of DEF and you leave it exposed to sunlight even briefly, it loses its potency. It needs to be kept out of the sun and it needs to be kept cool. You can’t just grab a container of DEF and throw it in the bed of your truck.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:41 pm to HooDooWitch
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:41 pm to Darth_Vader
I remember doing a group project related to DEF in grad school
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:42 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
Since DEF is 60% water, what would happen if a guy just dumped 100% water in his def tank?
Depending on what you have, you just cost yourself anywhere from a few thousand dollars to well over $10,000.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:43 pm to Klark Kent
quote:
So, the fact that the OEMs have chosen to use SCR in this after-treatment form (the NOx reduction is done in the exhaust, not in the engine) means that they can build their engines pretty much any way they want. Gobs of horsepower and torque can be built into the engine and then all the NOx is taken care of with DEF. Clever, isn’t it? The OEMs say that they’ve been able to increase fuel mileage by about five percent using SCR/urea.
Seems to contradict his point pretty clearly.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:45 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Same in the earthmoving world. These systems are extremely complicated, expensive to make, expensive to maintain, and tend to be extremely delicate and subject to failure.
Can operators still push thru regens? That was always our biggest issue.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:45 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Same in the earthmoving world. These systems are extremely complicated, expensive to make, expensive to maintain, and tend to be extremely delicate and subject to failure.
The Tier 4 locomotives don't use DEF, but even more complicated emissions shite, because the railroads didn't want to have to deal with DEF storage tanks and refilling stations.
The railroad I used to work for has rebuilt hundreds of locomotives built in the 1990's to where they are essentially brand new with the old tech.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:48 pm to Darth_Vader
Your original post stating that DEF does absolutely nothing is not true. DEF actually reduces the amount of NOX released into the atmosphere.
there are two types of emissions coming from exhaust.
1. Particulate (soot) - hence particulate filters that catch the soot - once full the engine goes into regeneration mode, creating extreme heat in the filter (14-1600 degrees) to burn of the particulate matter.
2 NOX - a gas emited from the exhaust. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust system to reduce NOX emissions.
Over 10 years in sales with your competitor.
there are two types of emissions coming from exhaust.
1. Particulate (soot) - hence particulate filters that catch the soot - once full the engine goes into regeneration mode, creating extreme heat in the filter (14-1600 degrees) to burn of the particulate matter.
2 NOX - a gas emited from the exhaust. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust system to reduce NOX emissions.
Over 10 years in sales with your competitor.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:50 pm to zbra24
quote:
Your original post stating that DEF does absolutely nothing is not true.
Yeah, that's what I was saying but you know how people here are.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:50 pm to Darth_Vader
Did you learn this in your very important meetings for your very important job this morning?
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:51 pm to lsufan1971
quote:
s very hard to get a delete done any longer. FedGov cracked down on companies that did it.
Does this apply to turning off active fuel management/cylinder deactivation on gasoline engines?
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:52 pm to EarlyCuyler3
quote:
Seems to contradict his point pretty clearly.
Any benefit from a 5% increase in fuel mileage is wiped away from the added expense of the exhaust system. And I’m not talking just the cost of having to buy DEF fluid. These systems have a filter that over time has to be removed and “baked” to fully clean them out. And even with that the filter eventually has to be replaced. They cost thousands. Plus, as I’ve already stated, these systems are extremely complicated and downright fragile. They break.. a lot. And the cost to repair is quite high.
Again, there is ZERO benefit to these systems.
This post was edited on 6/20/22 at 12:54 pm
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:54 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Again, there is ZERO benefit to these systems.
That ignores the reduced emissions as well.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:54 pm to Darth_Vader
The last three diesels I've bought for work have all been pre-2010 for this reason. Just one more thing to worry about and pay for.
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:54 pm to Darth_Vader
So basically we need to piss in a bottle and add some water? Sounds easy enough. Don't need no Russians for that
Posted on 6/20/22 at 12:55 pm to EarlyCuyler3
quote:
That ignores the reduced emissions as well.
From a real world business standpoint, there is no benefit from reduced emissions. The only benefit is from a fantasy “feel good” standpoint.
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