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re: I don’t get why it is more costly for colleges to educate students now vs the 70s/80s
Posted on 5/1/22 at 8:37 am to Stealth Matrix
Posted on 5/1/22 at 8:37 am to Stealth Matrix
Expectations for tenure have definitely changed since the 70s and 80s. Back then a faculty member could be achieve tenure without a terminal degree, had more lenient publishing expectations, and could get by with lower teaching expectations and assessment. It was also not uncommon for faculty members in 70s and 80s to be offered tenure based on how they fit into the culture of the department rather than the merits of their overall work. If someone was a "good guy" who was well liked by their peers but a horrible teacher and showed no improvement over 5+ years then they had a decently good chance of being offered tenure as long as they could pass the vote and wasn't unknown to the Provost.
I won't argue that everything is fixed now at academic institutions but to claim that schools give out tenure to faculty like it's candy ignores the just as flawed process that existed 40+ years ago. And issues with tenure go both ways; some professors create openly hostile workplaces, especially with junior faculty, because they know they can get away with it. We just don't hear about about that often because people outside academia aren't interested enough to care.
I won't argue that everything is fixed now at academic institutions but to claim that schools give out tenure to faculty like it's candy ignores the just as flawed process that existed 40+ years ago. And issues with tenure go both ways; some professors create openly hostile workplaces, especially with junior faculty, because they know they can get away with it. We just don't hear about about that often because people outside academia aren't interested enough to care.
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Posted on 5/1/22 at 8:40 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Bloated and overpaid admin depaetments at every single college along with "tenured professors".
All making bank on brainwashing our youth.
College is the biggest scam pulled on our country in the last 50 years. They convinced us that you wouldn't amount to anything in life without a degree. All they did was turn higher learning into a cult that produces mindless drones.
All making bank on brainwashing our youth.
College is the biggest scam pulled on our country in the last 50 years. They convinced us that you wouldn't amount to anything in life without a degree. All they did was turn higher learning into a cult that produces mindless drones.
This post was edited on 5/1/22 at 8:44 am
Posted on 5/1/22 at 8:45 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
The administration’s have grown exponentially.
There was a breakdown of the cost at Ohio State diversity and inclusion and I think it was 30 million a year.
There was a breakdown of the cost at Ohio State diversity and inclusion and I think it was 30 million a year.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 10:32 am to StringedInstruments
Administrative bloat is the main cause for the increase in tuition. Programs and administrators specifically created to oversee other administrators and programs.
The genesis of this is twofold: first, the desire to attract students by making college something it doesn’t need to be - a social engineering/community building/entertainment experience. Second, guaranteed streams of revenue (student loans) to pay for all of that, which guarantees its expansion.
Faculty salaries are secondary to this. They are high, but concentrated only on the few professors at the top of the pyramid. Adjunct faculty picks up a sizable portion of the teaching at many universities, and you might be surprised at how little they make. Think $5,000 per semester course. And that’s the personnel model that more and more colleges are adapting. Farm out cheap labor to temporary faculty teaching (in many cases) online courses, and keep expanding programs to make your campus Disney World-like.
The genesis of this is twofold: first, the desire to attract students by making college something it doesn’t need to be - a social engineering/community building/entertainment experience. Second, guaranteed streams of revenue (student loans) to pay for all of that, which guarantees its expansion.
Faculty salaries are secondary to this. They are high, but concentrated only on the few professors at the top of the pyramid. Adjunct faculty picks up a sizable portion of the teaching at many universities, and you might be surprised at how little they make. Think $5,000 per semester course. And that’s the personnel model that more and more colleges are adapting. Farm out cheap labor to temporary faculty teaching (in many cases) online courses, and keep expanding programs to make your campus Disney World-like.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 10:45 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
The cost is the same... the value of the money used to pay for said education is not the same...
Posted on 5/1/22 at 11:12 am to StringedInstruments
quote:
My advisor at Auburn made $250k/year and took an all expenses paid trip to Europe every year for “research.” This wasn’t a week trip. This was like 6 weeks. Had a 2/1 teaching load. Was tenured and published every few years.
And it’s absolutely all because students are given loans for college degrees like it’s free candy.
While it is the students responsibility to make good decisions regarding education. The universities should be responsible for meeting some minimum standard to where they have to have so many people who complete the degree. If they can't ensure that there is a minimum percentage of graduates, then they need to scrutinize more who they accept. There should also be a minimum percentage regarding job placement. If they can't assist a minimum percentage of their graduates with job placement, then they should be limited to the number they accept into those programs. Universities are not held to any accountability of who they give money to. With that, the example quoted at the beginning of my post is still unacceptable.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 11:15 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Explain to me why a school like LSU could give a 1970s student a 4 year education/degree at 4 times less the cost as a 2022 student
Government backed student loans
Posted on 5/1/22 at 11:17 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
What does a textbook cost these days? Do they even still use textbooks? There used to be bookstores all over selling them and then buying them back at the end of the semester - I haven't seen one in a decade at least.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 1:10 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
Professors make BANK. Get sabbaticals. Get a cushy schedule. Get actual tenure (makes what K12 teachers get look amateur).
Full professors make good money. Making full professor can take anywhere from 12-20 years (7 years for promotion & tenure plus 5-10 years as an Associate with demonstration of increased output every year) and isn't guaranteed at all. It's not an automatic raise. Sabbaticals are unpaid, unless the university offers some outstanding compensation. Typically faculty who go on sabbatical apply for external (think national or international grant-funding sources) high-level research funding which supplements their loss of income from the year off. When faculty go on sabbatical they are supposed to research while filling out required administrative reports for what they did on sabbatical. I don't know what the K-12 tenure process looks like, but a ton of work over seven years goes into one's ability to be offered tenure at universities.
A dirty thing going on right now is that denial of tenure for faculty at Ivies is increasing because administrators know they can get 6-7 years out of a candidate then move on to another because there's a steady & strong pool of candidates waiting to have the school's name on their resume.
quote:
My advisor at Auburn made $250k/year and took an all expenses paid trip to Europe every year for “research.” This wasn’t a week trip. This was like 6 weeks. Had a 2/1 teaching load. Was tenured and published every few years.
That sounds amazing! A 2-1 teaching load sounds great! And practically unattainable for faculty nowadays. That pretty much can only happen at an R1 institution with a full professor or if the faculty member goes into administration (Provost, Dean, etc.). Your advisor must be (or was) a very high-level producer of research to the field, which sounds like the university wanted to keep that up by requiring fewer classes. Which isn't really 2-1 load but probably a 3-3 with course releases for research. The dean or provost could rescind such releases to meet the needs of the university, but probably didn't because as long as the faculty member is producing top-level research and bringing in external grants.
Professors are not what is costing more colleges and universities to educate students. The growing gap between what universities spend on administrative costs vs budget on faculty + instruction is a better place to examine.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 1:18 pm to cable
quote:
What does a textbook cost these days? Do they even still use textbooks? There used to be bookstores all over selling them and then buying them back at the end of the semester - I haven't seen one in a decade at least.
Textbooks are still expensive. Most publishers have converted to e-text only options, so students really don't get any money back after the class is over. They can also contain required access to things like online quizzes and tests. Some schools started bundling the cost of textbook access into student fees, and the students never crack open the e-text. The publishers get their money, the schools cut down on labor (textbook store employees), and students have no option unless their teacher uses an open textbook or still makes quizzes and tests on their own.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 1:47 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
It is all a racket for the money lenders
Tuition goes up... kids need loans to pay it... Tuition goes up again... more loans... Tuition goes up again... more loans.
The Federal Government will gladly lend out any amount of money to students. Essentially passing on their debt to the Federal Reserve onto students.
The demand for college has been artificially instilled in kids so much so they will incur debt to go to college to get any kind of degree because their guidance counselors simply tell them college is a requirement.
Supply has kept up as well. Colleges were at maximum capacity then they started manufacturing degrees in any soft science you could think of.
It's all a pyramid scheme and when it all topples over who knows what will happen.
Tuition goes up... kids need loans to pay it... Tuition goes up again... more loans... Tuition goes up again... more loans.
The Federal Government will gladly lend out any amount of money to students. Essentially passing on their debt to the Federal Reserve onto students.
The demand for college has been artificially instilled in kids so much so they will incur debt to go to college to get any kind of degree because their guidance counselors simply tell them college is a requirement.
Supply has kept up as well. Colleges were at maximum capacity then they started manufacturing degrees in any soft science you could think of.
It's all a pyramid scheme and when it all topples over who knows what will happen.
Posted on 5/1/22 at 1:50 pm to cable
quote:
What does a textbook cost these days? Do they even still use textbooks? There used to be bookstores all over selling them and then buying them back at the end of the semester - I haven't seen one in a decade at least.
I had a mix of both recently in grad school. Still had to pay about $400 for Cengage’s subscription service to get a deal since you can’t sell an e-text back.
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