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Message
Difference between Herman and Strong and Sumlin
Posted on 9/28/16 at 12:44 am
Posted on 9/28/16 at 12:44 am
A lot of people are acting like Herman would be a surefire answer to our coaching search. What sets him apart now from Charlie Strong when he was at UL and Kevin Sumlin when he was at UH? I'm not saying Herman would be a bad choice, I'm just curious as to what would separate him from Sumlin and Strong.
9
Posted on 9/28/16 at 12:46 am to LSUsuperfresh
quote:
Difference between Herman and Sumlin
One isnt an alcoholic
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:00 am to LSUsuperfresh
Well for starters Charlie is a defensive coach.
Second, both Charlie and Kevin took over programs that needed to be rebuilt. Texas cupboards were not stocked like they used to be and Texas A&M was barely making bowl games prior to Sumlin.
Third, Herman has taken the same Houston program that Kevin was at to a major bowl game in his first season and has the team in the top 6 of the current polls. Then when you look into his last season as OSU OC he was able to field a high powered offense despite his first and second strong Qb going down due to injuries. He took a Houston team that ranked 53rd in offense the year prior to him arriving to 13th in total offense in his first year.
Also if you look into each of the coaches first 2 seasons only Herman has defeated 2 top 10 programs and 5 top 25 teams in his first 18 games.
ETA: UL cupboards were empty too when Charlie was there. LSU isn't a rebuilding job. Apples and oranges.
Second, both Charlie and Kevin took over programs that needed to be rebuilt. Texas cupboards were not stocked like they used to be and Texas A&M was barely making bowl games prior to Sumlin.
Third, Herman has taken the same Houston program that Kevin was at to a major bowl game in his first season and has the team in the top 6 of the current polls. Then when you look into his last season as OSU OC he was able to field a high powered offense despite his first and second strong Qb going down due to injuries. He took a Houston team that ranked 53rd in offense the year prior to him arriving to 13th in total offense in his first year.
Also if you look into each of the coaches first 2 seasons only Herman has defeated 2 top 10 programs and 5 top 25 teams in his first 18 games.
ETA: UL cupboards were empty too when Charlie was there. LSU isn't a rebuilding job. Apples and oranges.
This post was edited on 9/28/16 at 1:03 am
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:14 am to LSUsuperfresh
Very good question
While there is really nothing we can know for sure.. Here are a few differences
Sumlin took over Houston from Art Briles who had a solid program going.
Herman took it over from Tony Levine who was going 8-5 in good seasons
Look at Sumlin's best season at Houston, and you'll see he didn't play anyone that year.
As for Strong it is harder to say. Personally i think Texas is a spread state. They play spread from pee wee through high school. He had a similar problem to Les trying to run pro with spread players. Also i think Texas defenders are soft as shite.
While there is really nothing we can know for sure.. Here are a few differences
Sumlin took over Houston from Art Briles who had a solid program going.
Herman took it over from Tony Levine who was going 8-5 in good seasons
Look at Sumlin's best season at Houston, and you'll see he didn't play anyone that year.
As for Strong it is harder to say. Personally i think Texas is a spread state. They play spread from pee wee through high school. He had a similar problem to Les trying to run pro with spread players. Also i think Texas defenders are soft as shite.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:17 am to Harv1790
You don't think we're going to be somewhat of a rebuilding job next year? It's unbelievable the amount of talent that will be leaving after this year.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:18 am to SammyTiger
Difference is Strong finally accepted that a change needed to be made on offense and now Texas is a Spread power run team. He has his passer and his Tebow..
I agree his defense is soft as sh**
Which is not common for Strong. He fielded many good defenses for us.
I agree his defense is soft as sh**
Which is not common for Strong. He fielded many good defenses for us.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:22 am to LSUsuperfresh
Herman has yet to go 5-7 at Houston
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:32 am to OKtiger
quote:
Herman has yet to go 5-7 at Houston
You're right. I just looked up Sumlin's history at UH. Really not that impressive and I think Herman has already accomplished more than Sumlin ever did.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:33 am to LSUsuperfresh
Although we won't have the talent that we have this year it still won't be considered a rebuilding job. There will be plenty of talent leftover where he can win around 9 games his first season.
Also if most of the current class holds up (as it is projected to) then we should have plenty depth.
The teams Charlie took over were 4-8 (UL) and Texas was 8-5 (if you look up their roster I don't believe there is an NFL player in site).
Kevin stint at UH compared to Herman's is self explanatory. Tom has taken Houston to places Kevin never could in less than 2 seasons.
ETA: Kevin's defenses never ranked above 93rd in his years there. Tom currently has Houston top 5 in defense.
Also if most of the current class holds up (as it is projected to) then we should have plenty depth.
The teams Charlie took over were 4-8 (UL) and Texas was 8-5 (if you look up their roster I don't believe there is an NFL player in site).
Kevin stint at UH compared to Herman's is self explanatory. Tom has taken Houston to places Kevin never could in less than 2 seasons.
ETA: Kevin's defenses never ranked above 93rd in his years there. Tom currently has Houston top 5 in defense.
This post was edited on 9/28/16 at 1:38 am
Posted on 9/28/16 at 1:35 am to Harv1790
Herman is coaching a team composed heavily of Tony Levine's players.
The OU win isn't looking nearly as impressive as it did a few weeks ago.
Herman may very well be the next Saban if you are willing to roll the dice.
As for Strong, he took over a team laden with highly rated recruits that hadn't done much on the field.
The OU win isn't looking nearly as impressive as it did a few weeks ago.
Herman may very well be the next Saban if you are willing to roll the dice.
As for Strong, he took over a team laden with highly rated recruits that hadn't done much on the field.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 7:39 am to LSUsuperfresh
Actually I think Strong is damn good, but he had to clean up the mess that Texas let Mac Brown stew for four years. I also the Sumlin isn't near as bad as people make him out to be.
Strong was a defensive guy with a pro style offense going to the Big 12. Now you don't have to be a genius to figure out why that was going to be a bad idea early on. His first two years were 6-7 and 5-7. It was literally the same thing with Patterson and TCU.
Patterson, a defense guy with a pro style offense, went 7-6 and 4-8 in his first 2 years. Patterson then says F this shite, and gets Co OCs to run the air raid. His next two years they are 12-1 and 11-2.
Now Strong has said, F this shite, and got a Briles disciple's disciple, and with a true freshman QB, is looking damn good offensively. The defense is definitely garbage, but I believe they'll become at least decent going forward after the bye week. I see Texas finishing 9-3 with a chance at 10 wins with the bowl.
Also Sumlin was never really an OC play caller like people would think who don't do research. He was a WR coach. Kingsbury ran that offense. With that said, TAMU's past 2 coaches, in a weaker conference, they had one season each that had more than 7 wins, and had multiple losing seasons. Sumlin hasn't had less than an 8 wins in a season and he has finally realized what were the problems.
He took Chavis to fix his defense, then took the UCLA OC to fix his offense the next year. You need a running game, and now he has one, he needed a defense that was at least just enough, now he has one. As long as he maintains discipline within his program (cut out the divas, don't play favorites), TAMU will be really good going forward. I gotta say they have a really tough schedule though, as they still have to play Tennessee, Bama, Ole Miss, and LSU is tricky no matter if we are still bad when we get to that game. Split those 4 and you are looking at a 10-11 win season on the full year.
If Sumlin and Strong bring Texas and TAMU back up, it will be damn near impossible to recruit top Texas talent without a guy like Herman.
Strong was a defensive guy with a pro style offense going to the Big 12. Now you don't have to be a genius to figure out why that was going to be a bad idea early on. His first two years were 6-7 and 5-7. It was literally the same thing with Patterson and TCU.
Patterson, a defense guy with a pro style offense, went 7-6 and 4-8 in his first 2 years. Patterson then says F this shite, and gets Co OCs to run the air raid. His next two years they are 12-1 and 11-2.
Now Strong has said, F this shite, and got a Briles disciple's disciple, and with a true freshman QB, is looking damn good offensively. The defense is definitely garbage, but I believe they'll become at least decent going forward after the bye week. I see Texas finishing 9-3 with a chance at 10 wins with the bowl.
Also Sumlin was never really an OC play caller like people would think who don't do research. He was a WR coach. Kingsbury ran that offense. With that said, TAMU's past 2 coaches, in a weaker conference, they had one season each that had more than 7 wins, and had multiple losing seasons. Sumlin hasn't had less than an 8 wins in a season and he has finally realized what were the problems.
He took Chavis to fix his defense, then took the UCLA OC to fix his offense the next year. You need a running game, and now he has one, he needed a defense that was at least just enough, now he has one. As long as he maintains discipline within his program (cut out the divas, don't play favorites), TAMU will be really good going forward. I gotta say they have a really tough schedule though, as they still have to play Tennessee, Bama, Ole Miss, and LSU is tricky no matter if we are still bad when we get to that game. Split those 4 and you are looking at a 10-11 win season on the full year.
If Sumlin and Strong bring Texas and TAMU back up, it will be damn near impossible to recruit top Texas talent without a guy like Herman.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 8:33 am to Datbayoubengal
One is a cutting edge RPO coach and the other is an Air RAID guy
Posted on 9/28/16 at 8:53 am to Harv1790
quote:
Texas cupboards were not stocked like they used to be
This. and he cut some good players who didnt buy in if im not mistaken.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 8:59 am to Harv1790
quote:
Texas cupboards were not stocked like they used to be
That is a hindsight is 20:20 kind of thing.
At the time of his hire the talk was Strong could potentially have a quick turn around because the DID have talent and they weren't far removed from a #2 ranked class. Problem was the talented players didn't fit his system or his culture so it turned into a rebuild. Few predicted that going in.
The honest answer is every coaching hire is a crapshoot. You never know. You can sit there and cook up spin by combining 20:20 hindsight plus optimism about the next guy whoever he is, but every coach hire is a risk.
Just some risks are worth taking.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 9:03 am to LSUsuperfresh
quote:He's white. That's probably why they love him more than the past "flavor of the month" coaches. Some idiots on here even think he's a better coach than Jimbo Fisher.
I'm just curious as to what would separate him from Sumlin and Strong.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 9:05 am to LSUsuperfresh
Mensa member
Posted on 9/28/16 at 10:18 am to LSUsuperfresh
quote:
You don't think we're going to be somewhat of a rebuilding job next year? It's unbelievable the amount of talent that will be leaving after this year.
check out the roster, sure we lose a lot of starters, but there are alot of juniors and seniors on the roster, this rercuiting year is huge...its another reason why we cant wait too long to hire someone.. another reason maybe why the change was made so early...
This post was edited on 9/28/16 at 10:19 am
Posted on 9/28/16 at 10:22 am to Datbayoubengal
quote:
If Sumlin and Strong bring Texas and TAMU back up, it will be damn near impossible to recruit top Texas talent without a guy like Herman.
valid point
Posted on 9/28/16 at 2:10 pm to TigerFan55555
quote:
If Sumlin and Strong bring Texas and TAMU back up, it will be damn near impossible to recruit top Texas talent without a guy like Herman.
Don't agree. They can only take 25 each and Aggies are taking more OOS recruits anyway.
There will always be some very good players that chose to go out of state for whatever reason.
I have a feeling the fascination with Herman will cool off a tad after Houston plays Louisville.
Posted on 9/28/16 at 2:55 pm to Datbayoubengal
One thing you wouldn't know about Sumlin from reading the usual online resume is that a large part of the reason he got the A&M job in 2012 was because of his first stint at A&M as an assistant under RC Slocum. Slocum's offensive coordinator in 2002 was future Syracuse head coach Dino Babers, and Dino's offense wasn't getting the job done. RC demoted him mid-season, and elevated Sumlin to OC. Sumlin changed quarterbacks and turned the offense around--it wasn't enough to save Slocum's job, but it left a favorable impression, and provided a level of comfort knowing that Sumlin knew exactly what he was signing up for. Whenever you bring in a sought after coach who has no connections or experience with the program, you always wonder if there might be an issue of fitting in.
I don't know that it's a huge concern for LSU since there aren't a whole lot of negatives to the job, but that's one reason why Jimbo Fisher has to be so high on the list--there wouldn't be any culture shock if he took the job.
I don't know that it's a huge concern for LSU since there aren't a whole lot of negatives to the job, but that's one reason why Jimbo Fisher has to be so high on the list--there wouldn't be any culture shock if he took the job.
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