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re: The Wheel of Time -- Season 2 coming in September -- Wise Ones Thread (Book Spoilers)
Posted on 11/23/21 at 1:35 am to shinerfan
Posted on 11/23/21 at 1:35 am to shinerfan
I’ve read the books many a time. Think about how this plot can realistically play out on screen. It’s going to be a lot less detailed; it has to be. That sort of stuff is easily written around.
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Posted on 11/23/21 at 8:14 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
Can you read?
Yes. I read they didn't even know if the Dragon Reborn was male or female.
quote:
The Aes Sedai just don’t know that.
Everyone in the world knew that the Dragon Reborn was male. Hell people in the Two Rivers (back of beyond) knew that.
There is no defense for this. It was stupid and pointless.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 8:17 am to shinerfan
quote:
The division between saidin and saidar is crucial to the story. Without the taint on saidin the Red Ajah have no reason for existing. The patch on the Dark One's prison is failing because it was made with only saidin. It's not just misunderstanding prophecy, in this scenario they're completely ignorant of their own history
Why do you think they aren’t separating saidin and saidar? Everything I’ve watched indicates they are. How would they even do the story and leave this out lol?
Posted on 11/23/21 at 8:29 am to shinerfan
quote:
The patch on the Dark One's prison is failing because it was made with only saidin.
They don't actually know this in-world, Cadsuane believes this is true as revealed in the Sanderson books, Min reads something that makes her think this and tells Rand who I believe then hears Lew Therin agree? Or maybe he hears this conjecture from Lews Therin before Min, I can't remember.
Egwene, Siuan and the other Aes Sedai don't know this I don't think.
And they clearly will be having some sort of division as we see Logain have some taint / corruption on his one power in released videos - its like an inky black layer over the threads of power from what I can tell.
So they may use some quick dialogue to explain the division and not use multiple different names for the one power to avoid confusion for new viewers, but still have the general division as it impacts the story.
Also may get more detail once Egwene is in the Tower training, or when the dragon reborn starts to channel, etc. Still plenty of time to start feeding out tidbits of backstory and lore if they choose to go that route.
This post was edited on 11/23/21 at 8:37 am
Posted on 11/23/21 at 9:50 am to Toroballistic
quote:
Everyone in the world knew that the Dragon Reborn was male. Hell people in the Two Rivers (back of beyond) knew that.
It's an adaptation. They don't know that in this telling. Jeez, is this that hard to understand?
The show isn't perfect and deserves criticism as a production, I don't even know if I like it, but this sort of shite is just such a lazy take.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 2:21 pm to Rand AlThor
quote:
It's an adaptation. They don't know that in this telling. Jeez, is this that hard to understand?
And it makes no sense for the Aes Sedai not to know that, not sure why you are having an issue understanding that. The entire idea that they wouldn't is the lazy take, by Rafe.
The Red Ajah doesn't even make sense as a concept if the Dragon could be female, so it's dumb that they went in this direction.
I agree with you that the episodes so far have had far bigger, more consequential issues to critic the show for though.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 2:49 pm to Rand AlThor
quote:
It's an adaptation. They don't know that in this telling. Jeez, is this that hard to understand?
While I haven't been able to watch the show yet, meaning I am coming at this just based on what I am reading here, but one of the most critical aspects of the world of magic in WoT is the distinction between Saidar and Saidine (spelling?). One is the male side of the power and the other female, and it is fundamental to the entire story and world.
Again I may be misreadin what you two are discussing, so disregard my statement if so. I am hoping to get to start watching in the next couple of days. I've just been too damn busy to get to it yet.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 3:47 pm to Midget Death Squad
How do you not know how to spell Saidin after fourteen books?
I get that it was pandering to the audience but it's a slap in the face to insinuate the Dragon could be female and then have an entire ajah that hates males because of Saidin.
I get that it was pandering to the audience but it's a slap in the face to insinuate the Dragon could be female and then have an entire ajah that hates males because of Saidin.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 4:22 pm to JB Bama
quote:
How do you not know how to spell Saidin after fourteen books?
I'm too busy trying to not misspell actual English words and flailing miserably at it
Posted on 11/23/21 at 6:50 pm to auyushu
quote:
The Red Ajah doesn't even make sense as a concept if the Dragon could be female, so it's dumb that they went in this direction.
Yes they do. Male channelers go insane. Women do not. Yall are doing some mental gymnastics with the conclusions you’re gathering.
They arent trying to hunt for the dragon reborn. They’re hunting for male channelers because they go insane and wreck havoc. Some of them dont even believe the dragon is a real thing evident by the fact that some of the them wanted to still Rand initially.
The Red Ajah assumes every single male channeler that claims to be the Dragon to be a false dragon. And honestly the idea that the dragon could be female even plays into that. They want the dragon to be female instead of male because all men go insane.
Also, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the prophecy of the dragon is not known by all Aes Sedai in the White Tower, right?
This post was edited on 11/23/21 at 7:06 pm
Posted on 11/23/21 at 7:26 pm to Babble
Most don't, I believe most who did know about the prophecy of him being reborn, and thus were likely most versed in the actual prophecies, were killed by the black ajah after being sent out in search of the DR after the prophecy in New Spring.
You have Moiraine, Verin, Siuan and Cadsuane who seem well versed, probably Leanne as well prior to EotW. After Rand starts Dragon Reborning the frick out of everything, more become well versed as you see in some discussions during Elaida's Reign and in Salidar.
As you have stated, I think there is a very simple explanation for how this doesn't impact the world building in a major way. Thus far, I haven't seen a change that requires drastic changes to lore or the main points of the story - the show may decide to convolute things more but as of now, everything has a fairly simple answer that works in-world.
I also think it is worth noting that Sara Nakamura knows vastly more than all of us about the Wheel of Time and was one of the first hires on set. I'm going to trust that they are doing the best they can to try and do the books justice until I am proven wrong.
They certainly have already cut scenes I wouldn't have, given more prominence to aspects I wouldn't have, but that is just the nature of someone else having a vision for the show.
I've enjoyed the episodes so far and think each one has gotten better than the last so to my eyes at least, so far so good. Although it certainly hasn't reached its potential yet, it does have the benefit of having at least two seasons to show its worth to audiences and likely three unless the thing just absolutely tanks.
You have Moiraine, Verin, Siuan and Cadsuane who seem well versed, probably Leanne as well prior to EotW. After Rand starts Dragon Reborning the frick out of everything, more become well versed as you see in some discussions during Elaida's Reign and in Salidar.
As you have stated, I think there is a very simple explanation for how this doesn't impact the world building in a major way. Thus far, I haven't seen a change that requires drastic changes to lore or the main points of the story - the show may decide to convolute things more but as of now, everything has a fairly simple answer that works in-world.
I also think it is worth noting that Sara Nakamura knows vastly more than all of us about the Wheel of Time and was one of the first hires on set. I'm going to trust that they are doing the best they can to try and do the books justice until I am proven wrong.
They certainly have already cut scenes I wouldn't have, given more prominence to aspects I wouldn't have, but that is just the nature of someone else having a vision for the show.
I've enjoyed the episodes so far and think each one has gotten better than the last so to my eyes at least, so far so good. Although it certainly hasn't reached its potential yet, it does have the benefit of having at least two seasons to show its worth to audiences and likely three unless the thing just absolutely tanks.
This post was edited on 11/23/21 at 7:27 pm
Posted on 11/23/21 at 9:00 pm to Sneaky__Sally
The only true issue I saw with the dragon reborn possibly being a woman was that the show was going to somehow be way too explicit with what that implied (i.e transgender people) and would harp on it in a distracting manner that took me out of the world. They havent done that nor does it seem they will.
I really dont see how this changes the lore in a significant manner for season 1 and more importantly the series as a whole.
Most of the arguments I see are straight up people misremembering the story or providing false equivalencies that don’t even follow logically.
(i.e why would the red ajah hunt down male channelers if the dragon reborn could be female? The red ajah’s main purpose at this point in time is protecting the world from male channelers because they go insane when they touch the source. I dont think anyone other than Siuan, Moraine, Verin, or Leane even believe the dragon is alive at this point in the story)
I really dont see how this changes the lore in a significant manner for season 1 and more importantly the series as a whole.
Most of the arguments I see are straight up people misremembering the story or providing false equivalencies that don’t even follow logically.
(i.e why would the red ajah hunt down male channelers if the dragon reborn could be female? The red ajah’s main purpose at this point in time is protecting the world from male channelers because they go insane when they touch the source. I dont think anyone other than Siuan, Moraine, Verin, or Leane even believe the dragon is alive at this point in the story)
This post was edited on 11/23/21 at 9:04 pm
Posted on 11/23/21 at 9:37 pm to Babble
quote:
Yes they do. Male channelers go insane. Women do not. Yall are doing some mental gymnastics with the conclusions you’re gathering.
A male in a female body still channels Saidan, it's a basic part of the story, there is no gymnastics required. Bathamel/Halima exists and has established that fact in the series. So if they are going straight reincarnation then the Dragon in a female body would use Saidan and go insane.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 9:56 pm to auyushu
quote:
quote:
Yes they do. Male channelers go insane. Women do not. Yall are doing some mental gymnastics with the conclusions you’re gathering.
A male in a female body still channels Saidan, it's a basic part of the story, there is no gymnastics required. Bathamel/Halima exists and has established that fact in the series. So if they are going straight reincarnation then the Dragon in a female body would use Saidan and go insane.
I'm still unsure of how they will approach this as several people have said there will be some sort of transgender representation. But if they go that way, it should be extremely rare if it follows lore + current population trending.
We first consider the extremely small number of "false dragons" - who could learn well enough solo to cause a real havoc. Then we should also consider those like Oweyn who could channel but never really amounted to any notable destruction. Any below that level never learned although they had the spark or just never did anything with it - maybe they still went crazy but just never did anything with it or maybe a lack of developing the skill or touching Saidin precluded insanity.
Based on a quick google - the transgender population is 0.5% today. So one out of every 200 or so male channelers would be transgender. I never got the impression that false dragons were running rampant, I believe some characters had the conjecture that recently false dragons were being spit out more often because of the wheel reacting to the seal on the dark one's prison breaking. So, if you reverse that aspect of the lore, false dragons and male channelers were more rare going back in history after the initial breaking and so transgender didn't need to be a high priority list on the radar if looking at a similar portion of current population, it would be wasteful of resources to search those out looking on a probability perspective.
We can really go down a wormhole of metaphysics lore but point being, I still think there are simple, rational explanations to be made for a lot of these contentious issues. Is a whole transgender analysis necessary, probably not IMO - but I'm not privy to what it takes to get something greenlit for a massive budget or to capture an international audience.
And finally, this show just may not be meant for the deep metaphysics analysis in the same way we enjoy the books - it is hard to say if they are going to highlight that aspect of the worldbuilding thus far through three episodes. I can envision a show which doesn't invite people to theorize in the same way the books do and tries to just tell the story of the current age instead. The show can certainly leave it at simply explanations that may not hold up as well if you try and combine book lore + show lore, instead of just taking the show and its lore as a separate entity.
This post was edited on 11/23/21 at 10:13 pm
Posted on 11/23/21 at 10:34 pm to auyushu
quote:
So if they are going straight reincarnation then the Dragon in a female body would use Saidan and go insane.
Yea this checks out I guess. I think its an issue moreso with transgender (whatever we want to call them) people in this world as opposed to this change made for the dragon reborn.
Would this not be an issue in the books though? Like I agree with the point you’re bringing up but this would be an issue in the books. Unless we’re operating under the assumption that people cannot be trans (in the sense that a male soul is born into a female body and vice versa) in the books. Which if we are operating under that assumption than the whole Halima/Bathemal situation would have to be considered an outlier.
What probably makes more sense is to assume that Bathamel/Halima are outliers and not the norm because it would cause issues in the books as well? It makes more sense (to me at least) that the dark one is able to do things that shouldnt be possible which I think there’s a solid bit of evidence from the books to back this up (like his ability to bring back people from the dead)
If I had to guess they’re tying saidin/saidar to the sex of an individual and not their soul which is ironically very much so not woke. Precisely the reason why I’m getting frustrated at the mob for accusing production of making these changes in an effort to be woke.
Posted on 11/23/21 at 10:57 pm to Sneaky__Sally
So here are the three options I think of how they’re handling this. All of which are acceptable imo except #3:
1) They’re tying saidar/saidin to sex not the soul and hashima/bathemel will be outliers caused by the Dark One’s abilities to do that what should be possible. If they go this route, I think it will be very discrete as this is kind of transphobic (I think, honestly dont have the most authority to talk on that) This would be an extremely minimal change and you could argue its not even a change based on how you interpret the books.
2) They’re not going to focus on the lore much so that they cant get caught up in the contradiction they’re creating. They arent actually changing anything with the gendered soul idea, they’re just creating an inconsistency within season 1. After season 1 it’ll be a non issue, I think this is kind of sloppy but honestly will not be that big of a deal especially for non-book readers. Yes, book readers will not like this but it’s not gonna make or break the show.
3. They explain the lore in great detail exposing that they are creating a significant contradiction.
I’d be really surprised if they did this and would be pretty pissed as well.
IMO, I think they’re going with option 1 or 2 with me personally thinking option 1 is the better choice. Based off of what I’ve read about the production, I think its likely they’re going with the first option.
1) They’re tying saidar/saidin to sex not the soul and hashima/bathemel will be outliers caused by the Dark One’s abilities to do that what should be possible. If they go this route, I think it will be very discrete as this is kind of transphobic (I think, honestly dont have the most authority to talk on that) This would be an extremely minimal change and you could argue its not even a change based on how you interpret the books.
2) They’re not going to focus on the lore much so that they cant get caught up in the contradiction they’re creating. They arent actually changing anything with the gendered soul idea, they’re just creating an inconsistency within season 1. After season 1 it’ll be a non issue, I think this is kind of sloppy but honestly will not be that big of a deal especially for non-book readers. Yes, book readers will not like this but it’s not gonna make or break the show.
3. They explain the lore in great detail exposing that they are creating a significant contradiction.
I’d be really surprised if they did this and would be pretty pissed as well.
IMO, I think they’re going with option 1 or 2 with me personally thinking option 1 is the better choice. Based off of what I’ve read about the production, I think its likely they’re going with the first option.
Posted on 11/24/21 at 12:41 am to Babble
quote:
to do that what should be possible. If they go this route, I think it will be very discrete as this is kind of transphobic
It would be extremely transphobic, pretty much the exact opposite of what trans people are going for. If they are trying to be pro trans then the soul would determine Saidin/Saidar not the physical body.
Which once again as I said, it really doesn't make sense either way you go about it because of that. If this is the route they went then the showrunners are going to get ripped a new one.
This post was edited on 11/24/21 at 12:46 am
Posted on 11/24/21 at 1:37 am to auyushu
I don’t think they’ll explain it either way. They’d justify it by saying there’s trans representation with Halima which technically wouldnt be a lie.
I think they’ll just avoid getting into specifics and most people wont get their feelings hurt.
I think they’ll just avoid getting into specifics and most people wont get their feelings hurt.
Posted on 11/24/21 at 6:41 am to Babble
Based on pre release interviews - I would be shocked if halima is the only Trans person in the show.
I bet we see at least one notable secondary character who is Trans.
My idea for the whole channeling issue is to stick Trans saidar channelers in with the kin for the most part. And work that as a part of the story to struggle to gain acceptance by the White Tower. I think it works pretty naturally there.
I bet we see at least one notable secondary character who is Trans.
My idea for the whole channeling issue is to stick Trans saidar channelers in with the kin for the most part. And work that as a part of the story to struggle to gain acceptance by the White Tower. I think it works pretty naturally there.
Posted on 11/24/21 at 8:51 am to squid_hunt
I watched the second episode would like to say that I feel a lot better about it to this point. Shadar Logoth was incredible. My kids are completely sucked in, all the way down to the first grader. Bad guys are a little budget, but I can live with that. Hopefully, it builds from here.
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