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re: The Wheel of Time -- Season 2 coming in September -- Wise Ones Thread (Book Spoilers)
Posted on 11/19/21 at 12:29 am to Raistlins Apprentice
Posted on 11/19/21 at 12:29 am to Raistlins Apprentice
I found the new series to be low-caliber
It was an CBS/ABC/NBC show, and had all the theatrics and graphics of Heroes ca.2006 on NBC, but with worse dialouge.
Here you have a book with massive source material, and rather than take some and forget the rest, they decided to just throw it all out
Gripes:
- Lan and Moraine just announcing who and what they are to the town, rather than it being hidden (this helps the viewer understand what the Two Rivers is like)
- diverse town. It's supposed to be a sheltered place where everyone is of a similar background, and closely related. They did this just to be PC
They are all supposed to go out and see the world, and then experience the diverseness of it. Like Tuon is supposed to be unique. Rand's physique as an Aeil is supposed to be unique.
- Saying that the Dragon Reborn could be a boy or a girl. (No need for that, Moraine wanted Egwene for the White Tower, that's it)
- Saying Egwene was in the Womens Circle, and inventing some ritual
- Perrin married. Jeezus
- Mat's father some cheating bastard who is dirt poor
- Trollocs weren't done well
- Nynaeve gets kidnapped by a trolloc
There was no mystery to this. It's all low-brow, on-the-nose. No mystery, no suspense, nothing.
On top of that, they made the kids seem post-innoncent. Rand/Egwene having sex, the 3 guys griping about "another year of this stuff"/etc. In the books, they were almost as innocent as Hobbits, isolated, and living an idyllic life. The books were about a journey of young adults losing their innocence, seeing the real world, and then overcoming everything to defeat the Dark One.
It was bad. Plain and simple.
It was an CBS/ABC/NBC show, and had all the theatrics and graphics of Heroes ca.2006 on NBC, but with worse dialouge.
Here you have a book with massive source material, and rather than take some and forget the rest, they decided to just throw it all out
Gripes:
- Lan and Moraine just announcing who and what they are to the town, rather than it being hidden (this helps the viewer understand what the Two Rivers is like)
- diverse town. It's supposed to be a sheltered place where everyone is of a similar background, and closely related. They did this just to be PC
They are all supposed to go out and see the world, and then experience the diverseness of it. Like Tuon is supposed to be unique. Rand's physique as an Aeil is supposed to be unique.
- Saying that the Dragon Reborn could be a boy or a girl. (No need for that, Moraine wanted Egwene for the White Tower, that's it)
- Saying Egwene was in the Womens Circle, and inventing some ritual
- Perrin married. Jeezus
- Mat's father some cheating bastard who is dirt poor
- Trollocs weren't done well
- Nynaeve gets kidnapped by a trolloc
There was no mystery to this. It's all low-brow, on-the-nose. No mystery, no suspense, nothing.
On top of that, they made the kids seem post-innoncent. Rand/Egwene having sex, the 3 guys griping about "another year of this stuff"/etc. In the books, they were almost as innocent as Hobbits, isolated, and living an idyllic life. The books were about a journey of young adults losing their innocence, seeing the real world, and then overcoming everything to defeat the Dark One.
It was bad. Plain and simple.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 12:31 am
3
Posted on 11/19/21 at 1:28 am to LoneStarRanger
I respect all opinions here but you pretty much described how you wanted the feeling of LotR, and this just isn't it.
I liked but didn't love, yet. It's got tons of potential but needs to keep building momentum.
Hate to be that guy, but their biggest mistake thus far is having every female star be mildly attractive at best. That's not going to help bring in the casuals.
I liked but didn't love, yet. It's got tons of potential but needs to keep building momentum.
Hate to be that guy, but their biggest mistake thus far is having every female star be mildly attractive at best. That's not going to help bring in the casuals.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 1:33 am to LoneStarRanger
I had many of the same gripes. All of those deviations from the text would be fine if they served a purpose. But many seem frivolous, especially when you know they are cutting out entire sections of plot like Baerlon. The egwene women's circle thing is a perfect example. The women's circle didn't even need to be mentioned, much less have a scene of egwene "becoming a woman" which didn't even happen in the books.
The biggest thing for me was that I don't think they did the exposition well enough for someone who hasn't read the books to not be confused.
And the things they did change were enough to make many people who have read the book turned off to the adaptation.
The opening scene for the series should have been the prologue of book 1. Then the Aiel and blood snow, with moraine and siuan as novices hearing the foretelling. Maybe the next shot could cut to the scene with Logain and red ajah. I also had issue with the fact that in the books logains capture was clearly a badass destructive fight, and he was leading armies at the time. In the show he doesn't fight at all and it is implied he is already going insane, when that never happens in the books. This was also a lost opportunity to explain about false dragons.
Also... I hate that the scene with red ajah and Logain makes it seem like men and women channel the same way.
Mordeth not showing up was a disappointment. Are they cutting his plotlines out completely? Honestly they could but it's still a disappointment, especially considering the frivolous plot they added in.
How they're stepping into the wolfbrother thing seems.. awkward.
We've met the tinkers and still no elyas... Therefore still no explanation of the wolf thing to casuals.
I will continue to follow the show, but I have seriously lowered my expectations.
The biggest thing for me was that I don't think they did the exposition well enough for someone who hasn't read the books to not be confused.
And the things they did change were enough to make many people who have read the book turned off to the adaptation.
The opening scene for the series should have been the prologue of book 1. Then the Aiel and blood snow, with moraine and siuan as novices hearing the foretelling. Maybe the next shot could cut to the scene with Logain and red ajah. I also had issue with the fact that in the books logains capture was clearly a badass destructive fight, and he was leading armies at the time. In the show he doesn't fight at all and it is implied he is already going insane, when that never happens in the books. This was also a lost opportunity to explain about false dragons.
Also... I hate that the scene with red ajah and Logain makes it seem like men and women channel the same way.
Mordeth not showing up was a disappointment. Are they cutting his plotlines out completely? Honestly they could but it's still a disappointment, especially considering the frivolous plot they added in.
How they're stepping into the wolfbrother thing seems.. awkward.
We've met the tinkers and still no elyas... Therefore still no explanation of the wolf thing to casuals.
I will continue to follow the show, but I have seriously lowered my expectations.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 2:20 am
Posted on 11/19/21 at 6:59 am to F73ME
Against better judgment I stayed up and watched all three last night. Didn't love it. Didn't hate it.
I don't remember the early books enough to even pick up on some variances... but I didn't care for the opening scene with Logain at all. He was far more than a lone crazy guy.
I don't recall Perrin being engaged and accidentally killing his fiancee... I guess they are trying to build the character some and mature all of the main 5 past where they started in the books.
I'm going to keep watching for sure... but I was hoping for more.
I don't remember the early books enough to even pick up on some variances... but I didn't care for the opening scene with Logain at all. He was far more than a lone crazy guy.
I don't recall Perrin being engaged and accidentally killing his fiancee... I guess they are trying to build the character some and mature all of the main 5 past where they started in the books.
I'm going to keep watching for sure... but I was hoping for more.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 7:38 am to LSUBoo
Some of the changes I can see making sense. For instance, Perrin is a bit moody. They need something to show that since they don't have inner monologue. So, just give him a wife and kill her off.
I did find it very strange that the one white cloak told her to find an Aes Sedai. I'm only on the second book, but that seemed completely wrong unless that character eventually leaves the white cloaks.
My main problem was with the action and the trollocs. Either the camera moved too much and you couldn't tell what was happening, or the camera was focused and everything seemed very jerky. Also, I guess it's expensive to keep a full cast of trollocs and do full makeup, but I thought the LOTR orcs looked better as real people in makeup.
I did find it very strange that the one white cloak told her to find an Aes Sedai. I'm only on the second book, but that seemed completely wrong unless that character eventually leaves the white cloaks.
My main problem was with the action and the trollocs. Either the camera moved too much and you couldn't tell what was happening, or the camera was focused and everything seemed very jerky. Also, I guess it's expensive to keep a full cast of trollocs and do full makeup, but I thought the LOTR orcs looked better as real people in makeup.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 7:57 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
My main problem was with the action and the trollocs. Either the camera moved too much and you couldn't tell what was happening, or the camera was focused and everything seemed very jerky. Also, I guess it's expensive to keep a full cast of trollocs and do full makeup, but I thought the LOTR orcs looked better as real people in makeup.
Agreed 100%, hopefully this improves as the series moves on.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 8:30 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
My main problem was with the action and the trollocs. Either the camera moved too much and you couldn't tell what was happening, or the camera was focused and everything seemed very jerky. Also, I guess it's expensive to keep a full cast of trollocs and do full makeup, but I thought the LOTR orcs looked better as real people in makeup.
i liked everything with the trollocs and loved the scene. less cgi and human actors would have been better but 8 foot tall actors are hard to come by.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 8:33 am to Fun Bunch
I just can't decide how I feel. I've been a super fan of the books for ages (see account name), and before this released I felt like I had to talk soooo many people off the ledge about changes because it's an ADAPTATION and things have to change to match the medium...but after seeing it I'm just not sure if I'm in the same place anymore.
I felt like the acting and production overall (set design, etc) were pretty solid, I actually really felt like the actors for Mat, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan, Rand and Moiraine really all stood out as killing it.
But the pacing and storyboarding are just...plain bad. The first episode threw so much at you, but it left so much out. Example...they showed us nothing about Rand taking his dad's sword, but later he has the sword. I'm glad they at least gave it to him... But, why cut this? Why not make the episode longer or have their exit from the town extend into the beginning of episode 2? ESPECIALLY considering how much time they spent on less important things, like the darkfriend innkeeper in episode 3. It's just an odd set of choices.
FWIW I'm not really mad about the changes to Perrin and Mat's backstories, it makes sense to give them texture early because in the books they are sort of flat and their characters get more depth later. I know a lot of people are upset about those, but I get it personally. It's just the pacing and odd choices around how time is spent that I just can't really wrap my head around yet.
I felt like the acting and production overall (set design, etc) were pretty solid, I actually really felt like the actors for Mat, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan, Rand and Moiraine really all stood out as killing it.
But the pacing and storyboarding are just...plain bad. The first episode threw so much at you, but it left so much out. Example...they showed us nothing about Rand taking his dad's sword, but later he has the sword. I'm glad they at least gave it to him... But, why cut this? Why not make the episode longer or have their exit from the town extend into the beginning of episode 2? ESPECIALLY considering how much time they spent on less important things, like the darkfriend innkeeper in episode 3. It's just an odd set of choices.
FWIW I'm not really mad about the changes to Perrin and Mat's backstories, it makes sense to give them texture early because in the books they are sort of flat and their characters get more depth later. I know a lot of people are upset about those, but I get it personally. It's just the pacing and odd choices around how time is spent that I just can't really wrap my head around yet.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 8:34 am
Posted on 11/19/21 at 8:37 am to LSUBoo
quote:
I don't recall Perrin being engaged and accidentally killing his fiancee... I guess they are trying to build the character some and mature all of the main 5 past where they started in the books.
IMO it sort of makes sense, so much of Perrin's character is introspective and you don't even really see a ton of it until later in the series. Giving him this early texture probably won't affect his long term character arc too much but gives the (TV) audience something to understand why he is the way he is
Posted on 11/19/21 at 8:53 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
I felt like the acting and production overall (set design, etc) were pretty solid
agree, I've read a good bit of people (reddit, etc) complaining about the costumes / sets. The difference between this and GoT (which I would prefer NOT to compare to, but everyone is) is that these youngsters are rural country folks and not rich lords like GoT. I'm thinking / hoping that the sets are going to be massively more impressive as we get to see the White Tower and some of the other major cities.
quote:
But the pacing and storyboarding are just...plain bad. The first episode threw so much at you, but it left so much out
Yup, definitely felt rushed. I do hope they slow down now that the pairs of people are set on their separate paths.
quote:
FWIW I'm not really mad about the changes to Perrin and Mat's backstories
Also agree here. I 'get' the people that are mad about the changes from the books. I also agree that the forced diversity casting doesn't fit my "head canon" from the books.
I think one reason they didn't upset me as much is that I purposefully went ahead and read spoilers from the people who saw the screenings. So I knew Perrin was gonna have a wife, Matt's family made darker than the books etc.
While these details are different from the books, the basic outline of the story is being followed.
We've got young people, inexperienced and lacking knowledge of the wider world taken out of their small community and thrown into rapidly escalating events of worldwide importance.
While its not the version I would have made, or the perfect recreation I'd hoped for I still think it has the bones to be a good show.
*Edit - I should add, like Rand above me, that I've read all the books, multiple times and am very much biased in that I "want" to like the show. Hell I can remember being 10 or 12 years old trying to recreate the "flame" excercise in my head in order to conjure Saidin. So for me, seeing Rand grow into the Dragon and realize his power etc is something I'm very much looking forward to seeing.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 9:00 am
Posted on 11/19/21 at 8:59 am to nopants
quote:
I've read a good bit of people (reddit, etc) complaining about the costumes / sets
Some of their clothing looked like it came straight from the Gap. Specifically Rand's pink/blue sweater early on when they sat outside, then the fake sheepskin coat he wore in ep 2
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:09 am to YumYum Sauce
quote:
Some of their clothing looked like it came straight from the Gap. Specifically Rand's pink/blue sweater
ha fair point there, I didn't like that either, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of the show.
it has flaws for sure - but the fact is this is likely the only shot I'll have in my lifetime to see this series made into a major production so I'm going to hold out hope that its entertaining. If the worse comes to pass and it goes to total shite I can always read the books again to purge my memory
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:12 am to nopants
I will say a lot of the early stills and trailers made their clothing and stuff look cleaner than it ended up being, they were fricking filthy for most of these episodes which I appreciated
How did you guys feel about the mystery around the Dragon's identity? For me obviously knowing I felt like they sort of gave Rand big main character energy (the outburst against Moiraine for example), and my wife's first guess as to who it was was Rand, though she's now thinking it might still be Nynaeve ('did she lie about her age?!') or Egwene.
How did you guys feel about the mystery around the Dragon's identity? For me obviously knowing I felt like they sort of gave Rand big main character energy (the outburst against Moiraine for example), and my wife's first guess as to who it was was Rand, though she's now thinking it might still be Nynaeve ('did she lie about her age?!') or Egwene.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 9:16 am
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:27 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
How did you guys feel about the mystery around the Dragon's identity?
I had a bigger problem with all the characters knowing that one of them is the Dragon Reborn already. If I'm not mistaken, they have no idea why they are being followed by the Fades and Trollocs in the first book. Moraine just lets them know they are being followed, and they need to leave. As an audience, I think that might have played out better over the season. It starts out as a mystery. Why are these monsters chasing these kids? Then, over 8 episodes, you can tell the history of the world over time.
Again, let me know if I am remembering correctly, but I think the guys in the story know what happens to male Aes Sedai. So, Moraine letting them know they could be the Dragon Reborn from the very beginning should scare the shite out of them.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:31 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Again, let me know if I am remembering correctly, but I think the guys in the story know what happens to male Aes Sedai. So, Moraine letting them know they could be the Dragon Reborn from the very beginning should scare the shite out of them.
they do in the books. Logain's insurgency rise and fall is mentioned in the first book from either Thom or Padan and then maybe discussed further when they reach another town.
it's been a few years so i might be off a bit.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:34 am to 3nOut
quote:
Logain's insurgency rise and fall is mentioned in the first book from either Thom or Padan
Right, I'm pretty sure Padan tells them what is happening with Logaine. So, they are aware that Aes Sedai hunt false dragons.
I will say one thing I liked a lot was showing Padan laughing as he walks away during the Trollocs invasion. Non book readers will wonder what the hell that was, and it will set up well for later in the season and next season. I also liked the casting. In my head, Padan was a weasely looking white guy, but the guy who was cast has a crazy look to him that seems interesting.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 9:35 am
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:37 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
Padan was a weasely looking white guy,
of all the race / diversity swaps that seemed to be done without reason, Padan Fain is the one I thought they did a great job with, his facial features are gonna look GREAT as a darkfriend imo
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:38 am to DestrehanTiger
Yeah. In the books they’re definitely aware of the dragon and false dragons. They are not aware that they may be the dragon. They are haunted by Baalzamon in their dreams through the first book who makes overt references, but Moiraine keeps it to herself for the most part and they find out at the end.
I am fine with changing it because it’s clear that the reason is to give the non-book-reading audience a mystery to attach themselves to, that will get investment in characters. It’s pretty smart. I do feel like it was sort of stupidly delivered just randomly in a field by Moiraine, that could have been done a lot better.
I am fine with changing it because it’s clear that the reason is to give the non-book-reading audience a mystery to attach themselves to, that will get investment in characters. It’s pretty smart. I do feel like it was sort of stupidly delivered just randomly in a field by Moiraine, that could have been done a lot better.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:40 am to Rand AlThor
Just wanted to check before reading if this is going to have spoilers for future books? I'm only a few chapters in to book 2 so don't want spoilers but wanted to discuss with book 1 book readers.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:42 am to DukeSilver
quote:
Just wanted to check before reading if this is going to have spoilers for future books? I'm only a few chapters in to book 2 so don't want spoilers but wanted to discuss with book 1 book readers.
I'm in the same boat, but I can't help myself. I want to discuss the show, but the MTV thread seems like the wrong place for me. I believe there was a similar issue for GOT. An in between thread also seems excessive.
First world problem of the day.
This post was edited on 11/19/21 at 9:42 am
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