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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 2/24/14 at 2:49 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
Posted on 2/24/14 at 2:49 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
I just thought that maybe he found a book or a secret copy of the original plans of Maegor. Apparently there was Larys Strong that knew all the layout and he just up and disappeared. So maybe he found something of his.
1
Posted on 2/24/14 at 2:55 pm to thatguy1892
quote:
original plans of Maegor.
Maegor killed everyone involved with the construction of the secret passages so no one would know except targaryen family members.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 3:13 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
I don't even think some of the Targaryens knew about them. There's that period around The Dance of the Dragons and not long before Robert's rebellion, where the Targaryens were just a fluster cuck of deaths and distant heirs coming into secession. But what meant by copy of original plans is maybe Maegor had a copy made so he wouldn't get lost. The only other way I think Varys knows the ins and outs is trial by error.
What was your theory on it? I think I remember seeing you post it a while back but that was when I was still reading them for the first time and I was careful not to read too much of this thread.
What was your theory on it? I think I remember seeing you post it a while back but that was when I was still reading them for the first time and I was careful not to read too much of this thread.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 3:28 pm to thatguy1892
quote:
What was your theory on it?
Varys is a warg and was able to find all the passages by warging into cats and other creatures.
:Heavy crack pipe:
Posted on 2/24/14 at 3:48 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
Not bad. Only thing I could say to refute that would be Varys "claim" of hating all things magic. But the key word is claim.
Another way he could have learned the tunnels is by sacrificing his "little birds" going down into the depths. They learn the tunnels, awesome. They die trying, no skin off his back. The wiki just says that he mastered the secrets so...
Another way he could have learned the tunnels is by sacrificing his "little birds" going down into the depths. They learn the tunnels, awesome. They die trying, no skin off his back. The wiki just says that he mastered the secrets so...
Posted on 2/24/14 at 3:53 pm to thatguy1892
Varys and his whole 'little bird' operation creeps me out. 
Also, is there a connection/foreshadowing/some relevance between Varys's "little birds" and Sansa being referred to as a "little bird"?? Or is it just pure coincidence?
Also, is there a connection/foreshadowing/some relevance between Varys's "little birds" and Sansa being referred to as a "little bird"?? Or is it just pure coincidence?
This post was edited on 2/24/14 at 3:54 pm
Posted on 2/24/14 at 5:05 pm to ladytiger118
Is it possible that Varys knows them because of his connection with the golden company? Daemon Blackfyre was the favorite son. It is possible he had knowledge of Targaryen family secrets. If he told Bittersteel it could be a secret passed down through the Golden Company.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 6:06 pm to Finkle is Einhorn
"The Princess and the Queen" Dangerous Women. GRRM. 2013.
Story begins on pg 450 in the above link.
I've skipped over huge chunks of this thread since last summer, so I'm sure most of us have already read this recent story from 2Phat about The Dance of the Dragons. Interesting to read something about ASoIaF from an omniscient narrator instead of a single POV - it is the first time things can be accepted as fact without question, unless the narrator himself admits, as he does on several occasions, accounts differ.
I highlighted the above because it seems peculiar for him to include it where he did - in a search for more dragon riders, the Queen looked to bastards and base born "seedlings" with Targ blood. Sure, D&E tells us the Targ men were puss hounds, so do the novels. We already knew this.
Why would he mention Prima Nocte?
Knowing how he agonizes over every word, I can only conclude it is a clue, masquerading as essential info for a stand-alone story. To me, at least, it all but screams A+J = J and C. Aerys even laments the fact the tradition is no longer at the wedding...but he is the King, after all...
quote:
House Targaryen had ruled Dragonstone for more than two hindered years, since Lord Aenar Targaryen first arrived from Valyria with his dragons. Though it had always been their custom to wed brother to sister and cousin to cousin, young blood runs hot, and it was not unknown for the men of the House to seek their pleasures amongst the daughters (and even wives) of their subjects, the small folk who lived in the villages below the Dragonmont, tillers of the land and fishers of the sea. Indeed, until the reign of King Jaehaerys and Good Queen Alysanne, the ancient law of the first night prevailed on Dragonstone, as it did throughout Westeros, whereby it was the right of a lord to bed any maiden in his domain upon her wedding night.
Story begins on pg 450 in the above link.
I've skipped over huge chunks of this thread since last summer, so I'm sure most of us have already read this recent story from 2Phat about The Dance of the Dragons. Interesting to read something about ASoIaF from an omniscient narrator instead of a single POV - it is the first time things can be accepted as fact without question, unless the narrator himself admits, as he does on several occasions, accounts differ.
I highlighted the above because it seems peculiar for him to include it where he did - in a search for more dragon riders, the Queen looked to bastards and base born "seedlings" with Targ blood. Sure, D&E tells us the Targ men were puss hounds, so do the novels. We already knew this.
Why would he mention Prima Nocte?
Knowing how he agonizes over every word, I can only conclude it is a clue, masquerading as essential info for a stand-alone story. To me, at least, it all but screams A+J = J and C. Aerys even laments the fact the tradition is no longer at the wedding...but he is the King, after all...
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:15 pm to 19
Here was my take on Jamie and Cercei being Aerys bastards from earlier in this thread-
Speaking of Lannisters, does anybody subscribe to the theory that Cersei and Jamie are the children of Aerys Targaryen?
In ADWDs, Ser Barristan and Daenerys had a little chat about the marriage of her parents. He revealed that Aerys never loved his wife, instead lusting after the wife of his King’s Hand, Tywin Lannister. There was a long-standing tradition in Westeros where a noble could claim the right to spend the first night with the bride of his inferior, however this custom was banned ages ago as it was deemed barbaric. On the night of Tywin’s wedding, a drunken Aerys made a joke about claiming Joanna’s first night, much to the dismay of the guests
There are several parallels between the Lannister twins and the Targaryen clan. To start off, there is the excessive sibling-loving, which Cersei, herself, justified as being ‘okay’, since the Targaryens had been fricking each other for all everyone could remember. If the Targaryens could stick it into each other, why could not Jaime stick it in her?
However, it is important to note that this crazy talk might be due to her mental health going berserk, which is ironically another sign of having Targaryen genes. I mean, the house is well-known for producing psychotic broods.
Another big parallel is Cersei’s fascination with fire. We see that from her demented captivation while watching the Tower of the Hand burned down. Of course, being a pyro fanatic is a common trait of the Targaryens.
However, this theory does have a massive downside: Tywin Lannister.
The relationship between the King and his Hand was known to be awfully volatile. Tywin never forgot the Mad King’s lustful jest about his beloved wife, and the former is famous of being extremely protective of his family. It would be almost impossible for Aerys to have gotten near Joanna in any sexual way possible
It seems unlikely for GRRM to reveal yet another plot twist, that really would contribute almost nothing to the overall storyline. The only input that this theory would give to the series, if it proves to be true, would be the ironic revelation of Tyrion as Tywin’s only heir and the rightful lord of Casterly Rock
Speaking of Lannisters, does anybody subscribe to the theory that Cersei and Jamie are the children of Aerys Targaryen?
In ADWDs, Ser Barristan and Daenerys had a little chat about the marriage of her parents. He revealed that Aerys never loved his wife, instead lusting after the wife of his King’s Hand, Tywin Lannister. There was a long-standing tradition in Westeros where a noble could claim the right to spend the first night with the bride of his inferior, however this custom was banned ages ago as it was deemed barbaric. On the night of Tywin’s wedding, a drunken Aerys made a joke about claiming Joanna’s first night, much to the dismay of the guests
There are several parallels between the Lannister twins and the Targaryen clan. To start off, there is the excessive sibling-loving, which Cersei, herself, justified as being ‘okay’, since the Targaryens had been fricking each other for all everyone could remember. If the Targaryens could stick it into each other, why could not Jaime stick it in her?
However, it is important to note that this crazy talk might be due to her mental health going berserk, which is ironically another sign of having Targaryen genes. I mean, the house is well-known for producing psychotic broods.
Another big parallel is Cersei’s fascination with fire. We see that from her demented captivation while watching the Tower of the Hand burned down. Of course, being a pyro fanatic is a common trait of the Targaryens.
However, this theory does have a massive downside: Tywin Lannister.
The relationship between the King and his Hand was known to be awfully volatile. Tywin never forgot the Mad King’s lustful jest about his beloved wife, and the former is famous of being extremely protective of his family. It would be almost impossible for Aerys to have gotten near Joanna in any sexual way possible
It seems unlikely for GRRM to reveal yet another plot twist, that really would contribute almost nothing to the overall storyline. The only input that this theory would give to the series, if it proves to be true, would be the ironic revelation of Tyrion as Tywin’s only heir and the rightful lord of Casterly Rock
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:49 pm to Finkle is Einhorn
I prefer to think all 3 of them are Tywin's children, but as you stated, there is evidence to the theory. Cersei is The Mad Queen. 
Jaime killed the Mad King, he's going to kill the Mad Queen. Call be stubborn but the ONLY person who can kill Cersei is Jaime. The only way that death won't be disappointing is for Jaime to kill her.
Jaime killed the Mad King, he's going to kill the Mad Queen. Call be stubborn but the ONLY person who can kill Cersei is Jaime. The only way that death won't be disappointing is for Jaime to kill her.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:10 am to Finkle is Einhorn
See, I think Tywin's emphasis on legacy plays right into this theory - would he not bury the shame of the truth as deep as possible, after all, blonde hair is blonde hair...and set to biding his time to exact revenge...attempt at eradicating the Targ line...masking it as "protection" for new King Robert?
The argument was made that Tywin would have killed Aerys immediately...not with Casterly Rock and House Lannister at stake.
The Jaime/ Targ reveal could serve a lot in future - this story implicates need for dragon riders being Targ seeds, also Jaime could end up on the IT, after Aegon and Dany are dead.
Jon Snow won't get it IMO - his role transcends the crown I hope
The argument was made that Tywin would have killed Aerys immediately...not with Casterly Rock and House Lannister at stake.
The Jaime/ Targ reveal could serve a lot in future - this story implicates need for dragon riders being Targ seeds, also Jaime could end up on the IT, after Aegon and Dany are dead.
Jon Snow won't get it IMO - his role transcends the crown I hope
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:22 am to 19
quote:
The Jaime/ Targ reveal could serve a lot in future - this story implicates need for dragon riders being Targ seeds, also Jaime could end up on the IT, after Aegon and Dany are dead.
Jon Snow won't get it IMO - his role transcends the crown I hope
Jaime sitting the throne would be so surprising and mind-blowing. He has no desire to play the game at all. But I'd give George major kudos for that because it's not predictable, at all.
No way in hell that Dany sits the throne. No way. That's so blatantly obvious. When I was a Hodor, I knew that there was something more to Jon but I couldn't place it, and once I heard the R+L=J theory everything made sense. I think Jon could very well be king, but he'd hate every minute of it and only do it out of duty/for the good of the realm. He wasn't that crazy about being elected Lord Commander either, but he did his duty.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:56 am to 19
quote:
See, I think Tywin's emphasis on legacy plays right into this theory - would he not bury the shame of the truth as deep as possible, after all, blonde hair is blonde hair...and set to biding his time to exact revenge...attempt at eradicating the Targ line...masking it as "protection" for new King Robert?
If Jaime and Cersei are Aerys children, I don't think Tywin would have known. Joanna may have tried to keep it secret from him since it could cause the Lannisters to go to war with the Iron Throne. Joanna was shaken by it I think, and I doubt she ever returned with Tywin to court. It was the mere jest that pissed of Tywin. Plus this reaffirms Tywin's blindness to his children.
quote:
The Jaime/ Targ reveal could serve a lot in future - this story implicates need for dragon riders being Targ seeds, also Jaime could end up on the IT, after Aegon and Dany are dead.
Yeah, unlike Tyrion/Tywin theory, which lets Tyrion off the hook for killing his father and also completely justifies Tywin's horrible treatment of Tyrion, Jaime/Aerys has merit which wouldn't destroy the relationship between Tywin and Jaime and really just confirms it. Tywin never saw Jaime for the man he actually was, or at least refused to. Tywin always told himself and Jaime that he was him in younger form, except more handsome and better with a sword. Jaime has really almost nothing in common with his father, and any natural cruelty by Jaime I think is rather forced by trying to live up to his father's reputation (this comes completely natural to Tyrion though).
It also shows another reason why Aerys wouldn't have married Rhaegar to Cersei, since Aerys own little inside joke is that Cersei is a bastard and not worthy for his true born son. It also makes Aerys treatment of Jaime that much more horrible and shows how mad he really is. The irony behind "Bring me your father's head" would be great as well.
Plus what would it mean for Jaime as a character if he found out about this? It would most certainly come from Ser Ilyn. I doubt Jaime would really care all that much on being a bastard, but would be traumatized that Aerys blood runs through his veins. Once Jaime accepts this about himself, I think he'd join Aegon to make up for not saving Rhaegar's wife and child. I think he would tell Aegon to spare Tommen and to legitimize him as Tommen Lannister and Lord of Casterly Rock. Aegon will agree and welcome Jaime into his service.
Aegon invades King's Landing, and Jaime sneaks into the Red Keep with Varys help in order to save Tommen from Cersei. He finds Cersei (who I don't think I need to go into detail about her Targaryen similarities) in the throne room with a dead Tommen on the floor, just having been poisoned by her. Cersei is delighted to see him, saying she knew all along that they would die together. Jaime then asks her if she knows why he actually killed the Mad King. Cersei will say for the sake of their family, but Jaime then goes into detail why he killed him. Slowly but surely she begins to realize that Jaime is here to kill her and that she herself has turned into the Mad Queen. Jaime will also reveal that they are Aerys' bastard children, that she took after their father, and that he secured Tommen's life and title as Lord of Casterly Rock. Jaime then strangles her to death.
Once Aegon sits on the Iron Throne, both Jaime and Connington will realize that something is amiss. I think Connington will figure out that Aegon is not who he thinks he is and also thanks to a letter straight from Jon, he will figure out that Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's true born son. He will only be able to tell Jaime, who then flees the Red Keep for the North where the Rightful King of Westeros is to actually save the Kingdom.
But Jaime would be a bastard son and a Kingsguard, so I don't think he has any claim to the throne regardless of being Aerys' son.
quote:
Jon Snow won't get it IMO - his role transcends the crown I hope
I agree that his role transcends the crown, and he won't even think of becoming King until the Others are ultimately defeated, and will shun the idea from some of the people who tell him to take up the idea. I think that once Jon defeats the Others and saves the realm, everyone who doesn't have marriage ties to Aegon will betray him immediately and basically force Jon onto the Iron Throne. As Varys said about Aegon, "Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them." I don't think that phrase describes Aegon all that well, but certainly would describe Jon's.
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 11:02 am
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:30 pm to OMLandshark
Excellent post as always, OM.
Ever since I finished the books last year, I've subscribed to the theory that Jaime would be Jon's Kingmaker. Why else would David & Dan add that scene between Jaime and Jon in the pilot episode!? They're definitely going to meet again.
Also, new Season 4 posters
:
New S4 posters & Tyrion video
Ever since I finished the books last year, I've subscribed to the theory that Jaime would be Jon's Kingmaker. Why else would David & Dan add that scene between Jaime and Jon in the pilot episode!? They're definitely going to meet again.
Also, new Season 4 posters
: New S4 posters & Tyrion video
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:32 pm to ladytiger118
Which scene are you referring to?
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:33 pm to Korin
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:39 pm to ladytiger118
I took that more as Jaime being a douche and making fun of him/the Watch.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:48 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
It also shows another reason why Aerys wouldn't have married Rhaegar to Cersei, since Aerys own little inside joke is that Cersei is a bastard and not worthy for his true born son.
Excellent fricking point.
I had considered the fact that Tywin never knew- unless told by Joanna on her deathbed, but why would she?
Also, isn't it Tywin's POV that we hear why Ser Illyn lost his tongue? The comment about Tywin ruling...maybe he let slip the Joanna thing...
But then again, the level of revenge he took on wiping House Targ out seems excessive...but could be regularTywin efficiency.
I still like Jon Snow as The Great Other.
Talk about a 2Phat twist of the knife in our guts.
Mel sees Snow (or snow) in the flames, but what does it mean?
It wouldn't break my heart at all if this doesn't happen, of course.
ETA: In fairness, Jon may sit the IT for a spell, if only to protect it for the rightful heir - whichever that is who survives at that point.
By law, at the current time, it's still Stannis.
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 2/25/14 at 1:36 pm to ladytiger118
Posted on 2/25/14 at 1:37 pm to Korin
quote:
I took that more as Jaime being a douche and making fun of him/the Watch.
If anything, Jaime sympathizes with Jon because he knows what it's like to serve for life in a non-so-elite force; the Kingsguard in recent years, aside from Selmy, is just a shell of its former self.
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