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A Tolkien LOTR question- the battle of Gandalf and the Balrog
Posted on 4/26/22 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 4/26/22 at 9:10 pm
So, I got to wondering about this.
The mission of the Istari, Gandalf included, was to work behind the scenes and AIDE the Elves and Men against Sauron. His work was unfinished when he died fighting the Balrog, so he was sent back. He then said he was done after the Ring was destroyed (and with it, Sauron), and he happily went home to Valinor.
In this mission, they were prohibited from using their true power, in order to prevent them from ruling over Middle Earth themselves.
All that said... the fight in Moria was a side-quest. The Balrog was "a terror of the ancient world", but not involved in serving Sauron. He did his own thing. The Nazgul seemed to steer clear of him, the orcs in Moria he tolerated but they seemed terrified of him too. Other than the prevention of the killing of the Fellowship, this wasn't a necessary part of the quest.
So- is Gandalf obliged to cloak his power in this fight? Doesn't seem to be the case; he declares himself more openly than he ever does to the good guys...
So they fall down a giant chasm, and then fight toe-to-toe up the mountain to it's peak. It's all given in a later account, but that is far more than he ever does elsewhere in the story, even at Minas Tirith. He could take the Witch King in a real fight, but isn't allowed to do so. But he does take the Balrog, and it's even stated that he was the aggressor, pursuing the Balrog as it attempted to flee. He also dies, which in this case is simply the loss of his body (a trivial thing for a powerful Maia), which is returned afterwards.
So I wonder, how does Gandalf/Olorin actually appear, during this fight? Still some wizened old man, or does he get to go as a mighty warrior? Does he get to employ his full arsenal? I would think, yes... this is more of a final chapter of the War of Wrath, than it is a part of the War of the Ring.
What do y'all say?
The mission of the Istari, Gandalf included, was to work behind the scenes and AIDE the Elves and Men against Sauron. His work was unfinished when he died fighting the Balrog, so he was sent back. He then said he was done after the Ring was destroyed (and with it, Sauron), and he happily went home to Valinor.
In this mission, they were prohibited from using their true power, in order to prevent them from ruling over Middle Earth themselves.
All that said... the fight in Moria was a side-quest. The Balrog was "a terror of the ancient world", but not involved in serving Sauron. He did his own thing. The Nazgul seemed to steer clear of him, the orcs in Moria he tolerated but they seemed terrified of him too. Other than the prevention of the killing of the Fellowship, this wasn't a necessary part of the quest.
So- is Gandalf obliged to cloak his power in this fight? Doesn't seem to be the case; he declares himself more openly than he ever does to the good guys...
quote:A wielder of the flame of Anor- that's clearly stating he is not just some Elf even. He's stating he is a Maia in the service of the Valar.
I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow!
So they fall down a giant chasm, and then fight toe-to-toe up the mountain to it's peak. It's all given in a later account, but that is far more than he ever does elsewhere in the story, even at Minas Tirith. He could take the Witch King in a real fight, but isn't allowed to do so. But he does take the Balrog, and it's even stated that he was the aggressor, pursuing the Balrog as it attempted to flee. He also dies, which in this case is simply the loss of his body (a trivial thing for a powerful Maia), which is returned afterwards.
So I wonder, how does Gandalf/Olorin actually appear, during this fight? Still some wizened old man, or does he get to go as a mighty warrior? Does he get to employ his full arsenal? I would think, yes... this is more of a final chapter of the War of Wrath, than it is a part of the War of the Ring.
What do y'all say?
6
Posted on 4/27/22 at 12:45 am to Scoob
I don’t know, but good question. And the balrog looked amazing. Always wanted to see more of him in the movies.
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Posted on 4/27/22 at 1:03 am to Scoob
quote:that's actually really well put.
this is more of a final chapter of the War of Wrath, than it is a part of the War of the Ring.
The other explanation is that, while the valar didn't intervene in totality, they DID insert themselves at certain points. The blue wizards, manwe's eagles, tom bombadil rescuing hobbits from wights.
Posted on 4/27/22 at 8:00 am to Scoob
quote:
So I wonder, how does Gandalf/Olorin actually appear, during this fight? Still some wizened old man, or does he get to go as a mighty warrior?
At the beginning of the battle, he appeared in the eyes of the company to be the old gray man. One who had seen the light of the trees would've been able to see his true form. The Balrog would've seen his true form and recognized him as an equal. The body was just a form so that the peoples of Middle Earth could perceive him.
quote:
Does he get to employ his full arsenal? I would think, yes.
Absolutely.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 2:44 pm to Scoob
quote:
So I wonder, how does Gandalf/Olorin actually appear, during this fight? Still some wizened old man, or does he get to go as a mighty warrior?
I for some reason just assumed he changed after the defeat. He killed him still as the Grey and died in the process.
quote:
Does he get to employ his full arsenal? I would think, yes
I guess my previous answer means no to this one. Gandalf the Grey isn't his full arsenal.
quote:
What do y'all say?
I've also had the opinion that Gandalf the White could have taken Sauron even when he was at full strength
Gandalf defeated possibly (not possible to say for sure) the strongest Balrog who also used magic. Tuor was possibly the only one that defeated a Balrog and lived. And that's up for debate. I dont think Glorfindel defeated one on his own, I think he had help. Another opinion of mine in regards to Gandalf the White, a Maiar, was as strong as the Valar (or some of them).
And that at full strength, he could have defeated a full strength Sauron on his own. His fight verses the Balrog at probably half strength tells me he is a huge badass, much stronger than most view him because they don't consider what others who are considered more powerful than him weren't able to accomplish.
Posted on 4/28/22 at 6:18 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
And that at full strength, he could have defeated a full strength Sauron on his own.
What would you say about Gandalf's response, when Gimli tells him that he thought Fangorn was dangerous?
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous, more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
Posted on 4/29/22 at 12:00 am to Scoob
You just blew my mind saying the Gandalf/balrog battle being more of an ending chapter of the war of wrath. Been reading Tolkien almost exclusively for a while now and never really thought of that. Almost embarrassed I missed that 
As to would he have shown/given the balrog all he had? Absolutely he would have. I think the gloves were off for that fight so to speak. I seem to remember thinking that he wasn’t so much killed by the balrog as he was killed from the exhaustion of the battle. But I don’t really remember. I suppose I should read The White Rider chapter from the two towers again.
As to would he have shown/given the balrog all he had? Absolutely he would have. I think the gloves were off for that fight so to speak. I seem to remember thinking that he wasn’t so much killed by the balrog as he was killed from the exhaustion of the battle. But I don’t really remember. I suppose I should read The White Rider chapter from the two towers again.
Posted on 4/29/22 at 12:08 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
What would you say about Gandalf's response, when Gimli tells him that he thought Fangorn was dangerous?
I guess it depends on how you take the "more dangerous than anything you will ever meet."
They met Gandalf and would never meet The Dark Lord. So he is as badass as it gets for them. If that would have been possible then they would have met someone equally as dangerous. He doesn't necessarily say that he is less powerful/dangerous, it could be taken that The Dark Lord is just equally as powerful right?
Posted on 4/29/22 at 3:55 pm to biglego
quote:
And the balrog looked amazing. Always wanted to see more of him in the movies
Totes. It makes the abortion of Smaug so much worse. It's like technology regressed over the decade.
This post was edited on 4/29/22 at 8:14 pm
Posted on 4/29/22 at 6:37 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
They met Gandalf and would never meet The Dark Lord. So he is as badass as it gets for them. If that would have been possible then they would have met someone equally as dangerous. He doesn't necessarily say that he is less powerful/dangerous, it could be taken that The Dark Lord is just equally as powerful right?
That's not how I read it, but I don't have any way to actually disprove your interpretation of the text.
Posted on 4/29/22 at 11:24 pm to GOP_Tiger
I've read LOTR, The Hobbit, and the Silmarillion. Haven't read much Unfinished Tales or other works.
According the wikipedia, Olorin is affiliated with Manwe; I don't remember that being the case. If anything, I thought he was tied more to Lorien. I do remember Curunir being tied to Aule, as was Sauron before he jumped to Melkor's side.
Always considered Aule to be one of the more rogue of the Valar; his servants seem to drift over to Melkor. And he himself made Dwarves, in an attempt to create something of his own (something Melkor also sought). But Aule conceded and life was granted to the Dwarves, whereas Melkor was too proud and went to the darkness.
Olorin being tied into Manwe does make some sense, in that would explain his relationship with the Eagles (also Manwe). I don't know what tier he is, possibly 2nd under Eonwe for all we know. He may have faced balrogs before in the War of Wrath, which would have helped him in this case.
According the wikipedia, Olorin is affiliated with Manwe; I don't remember that being the case. If anything, I thought he was tied more to Lorien. I do remember Curunir being tied to Aule, as was Sauron before he jumped to Melkor's side.
Always considered Aule to be one of the more rogue of the Valar; his servants seem to drift over to Melkor. And he himself made Dwarves, in an attempt to create something of his own (something Melkor also sought). But Aule conceded and life was granted to the Dwarves, whereas Melkor was too proud and went to the darkness.
Olorin being tied into Manwe does make some sense, in that would explain his relationship with the Eagles (also Manwe). I don't know what tier he is, possibly 2nd under Eonwe for all we know. He may have faced balrogs before in the War of Wrath, which would have helped him in this case.
Posted on 5/6/22 at 1:30 pm to GOP_Tiger
For the first time I'm about to go crazy on the Pels board bc of one poster in the Griffin thread. Its driving me nuts
Posted on 5/24/22 at 9:01 pm to Scoob
If I recall correctly, JRRT wrote in a letter than Sauron was of an older, more powerful group compared to later Maiar like Gandalf.
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