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Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Home came with built-ins, but the guy took his subwoofer with him.
I have a Onkyo 676 at the house.
Just wondering what Subwoofer I should go with.
Any advice is appreciated.

Found a decent list to start: LINK
This post was edited on 12/5 at 12:02 pm


SG_Geaux
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re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Any list that does not include https://www.svsound.com/ is invalid. They have 45 day money back guarantee.

They have This one on sale right now because they came up with a new model.

I can shake the walls of my place and make pictures fall off.
This post was edited on 12/5 at 12:41 pm


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
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re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
What is the volume of the room

What is your budget

Are you interested in DIY


arkiebrian
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re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
I’m getting SVS speakers this week.


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20
Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Living Room space around 600 sqft (20w x 30d). Long Rectangle.
Kitchen and Sitting Room on either side. About 300 sqft each.
Kitchen (14w x 20d) is connected with an open concept and long side of both rooms runs parallel, but has a beam separating the ceilings.
Sitting room (20w x 14d) has some partitions for walls/ceiling and is only about half the depth of the living room. Short side sitting touches long side of living. So, some sound leaks in there, but not a lot... especially compared to kitchen.

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*Not to exact proportions, but you get the idea.

I'd like to keep it under $1k. I've seen some $2.5-4k subs and think that's crazy.
I don't mind being in the $300-750 range if there is a good quality to value ratio. And I don't mind spending $1k if it's really worth it, but I'm not going to throw money at it just for fun.
I'm not that big of an audiophile.

I'm not really interested in DIY.


busbeepbeep
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re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
quote:

Any list that does not include LINK / is invalid. They have 45 day money back guarantee.


this. Go internet direct for subwoofer

SVS
Outlaw
HSU Research
Rythmik
etc.


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highpockets
New Orleans Saints Fan
Lafayette
Member since Feb 2015
1180 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
My Klipsch sub is similar to the #1 in your list, I have no complaints it is matched with Klipsch Reference speakers.


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Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
2550 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
I come from the extreme end, my current HT build will not be finished for maybe 10 months but will have 20 18" subs powered with over 28,000 watts, all of which will be hidden. So building my own is the only way to go, but I get most people aren't interested in DIY or AIY (assemble it yourself from kits).

You have a lot of volume to fill and pressurization is essentially impossible but you can certainly get bass to satisfy most casual AV folks.

SVS as mentioned is always a good choice. SVS among others are ID (internet direct) companies that excel in value for the dollar. Tom Vodhanel was part of starting SVS back in the 90's but has his own company Power Sound with Jim Farina. As a general rule I prefer PSA subs to SVS subs. I would recommend a ported sub for your room and would suggest either the PSA 15V or V1500 in your price range.

PSA ported subs

On the SVS side I would look at their outlet specials (I know lots of guys that get them and they are perfect unless stated otherwise). They have a couple of PB12plus subs for 999 currently.

SVS outlet

There are a TON of options but ID companies are the way to go for value for dollar and they outperform every major speaker manufacturer for the money. There are other ID companies as well but these are the two that best serve your price range. If you want to spend less just stick with SVS and pick the ported sub that best fits what you want to spend. (your budget is at the bottom end of PSA subs).

I am happy to answer any question about placement and will get as technical as you like.

One last thing I will mention is you might want to consider 2 $500 subs vs one $1000 sub, placing them in different areas of the room will produce a much flatter frequency response than one sub, however, most people prefer one despite the value of multiple subs in a room.


Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Also, trying to discern the difference between the SB12-NSD, PB12-NSD, PB-1000, SB-1000, SB-2000, and PB-2000.
Not seeing much difference.... except price.


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
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re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
quote:

SB12-NSD, PB12-NSD, PB-1000, SB-1000, SB-2000, and PB-2000.
Not seeing much difference.... except price.


First, the SB subs are sealed and the PB subs are ported. Without getting into a long technical discussion ported is better for your room. Most of the negative issues people will attribute to ported subs only apply to poorly designed ones.

The NSD, 1000 and 2000 series use different drivers and amps, each one is just more capable than the previous series. No smoke and mirrors, you are getting what you pay for.


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NewIberiaHaircut
LSU Fan
Lafayette
Member since May 2013
7928 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Size, power, and sealed/ported box is the difference. SB = Sealed Box PB = Ported box.


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Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
I have a fireplace in between my cabinets. And the one cabinet on the left (when look at wall) has the av stuff. Tv mounted above mantle.

I do have a nook in either side of about 3' that is between the cabinets and the walls. Both sides have access to power. But the routing of the wire up to the ceiling, and back down the other side may be a nightmare. (Since I don't think going through the fireplace is a likely option.)

Unless it's a huge improvement, I may just opt for the single one. It would sit in the corner with a 1'x4' brick wall, 3' drywall exterior wall, and 3' cabinet surrounding it on its 3 sides. So pretty good reflection.
Secondly, been using system without sub for over a year now.

You can convince me to get two, but it'll need to be a good and technical explanation. Lol


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
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Member since Sep 2016
2550 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
quote:

Unless it's a huge improvement, I may just opt for the single one. It would sit in the corner with a 1'x4' brick wall, 3' drywall exterior wall, and 3' cabinet surrounding it on its 3 sides. So pretty good reflection.
Secondly, been using system without sub for over a year now.

You can convince me to get two, but it'll need to be a good and technical explanation. Lol


Corner loading is not necessarily (actually rarely) the best position for a sub, output at certain frequencies yes but for the flattest possible frequency response it usually sucks. The non-instrumented way to determine the best spot is to put the sub in the listening position (playing some good sub track) and crawl around on the floor until you find the best (non-boomy) sound, it helps if you know what a good sub systems sounds like. When it sounds the best then place your sub there.

There are options to use wireless for the signal to the sub so there is no wiring. If you happen to have spare coax wiring in the walls it can be used as well.

People into audio will hear a significant improvement in most rooms with multiple subs, you may well here no difference not related to volume. Hard to say.

The problem with frequencies below the Schroeder frequency (varies room to room but my guess is about 160hz for your space) is that waves interact much differently below this frequency than above. You will have peaks and nulls throughout the room that vary in intensity so some seating positions may not even here a certain bass note while others will hear it much louder than it should be. This is based on room modes and though easy to calculate for a rectangular room more complex space like yours is harder to predict.

Honestly, most people are perfectly happy to throw a sub in the corner let their AVR do its magic to calibrate it and go on. I spend hours with a laptop/mic building an equalization curve for use in a DSP channel for each sub. In the end if your AVR doesn't have two sub outs that are independently calibrated you will not gain as much with two subs than if it did or you went the manual calibration route with a DSP. My guess is one sub will be your choice.

Rather than drone on for pages if you are interested here are two white papers on the subject of multiple subs. The first is by Welti for Harmon and the second is from Gedlee, they each have a different approach but I follow the research from Welti who worked for Floyd Toole at the National Research Council in Canada and has done much of the important small room acoustics research over the past few decades.


Harmon white paper

Gedlee on multiple subs


Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Not sure if my onkyo 676 could even support 2 subs.


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
2550 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
quote:

Not sure if my onkyo 676 could even support 2 subs.


The 676 has 2 sub pre-outs but they present the same signal, not nearly as useful as a AVR with 2 discrete pre-outs that are individually calibrated with the onboard room equalization software. You will still get a lot of the benefit but certainly not as much as some other AVRs would give or certainly a separate DSP.

If you can set up duals in one of the better configurations shown in the Welti whitepaper without too much trouble with the wiring, I would suggest it. If it seems like too much of a hassle for what you want then use the most powerful SVS or PSA sub you are willing to buy, but I suggest experimenting with the placement. Short of using instrumented tests and outboard DSPs for subs the biggest thing you can change to improve a sub is placement. The room is even more important but for most the room is a set parameter. I should add for any AV geeks reading this that room treatment is really the most important factor but few if any people treat a room unless it is a dedicated theater. Bass traps in the corner have very low WAF (wife acceptance factor).


Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
After looking through the white paper, the only configurations that optimize performance are not realistic in my room design.

In Investigation 4 only configurations 1, 2, 4, & 5 are realistic options for my room.
And in Investigation 6, only configurations 22, 24, & 25 are viable.

So, among the options for my room that are viable, there is relatively no improvement over the classic single sub from placement 1 or 2. Although the hassle and additional expense of a multi sub system was a barrier, I would have considered undertaking the project if the research indicated a decent roi. However, that doesn't seem to be the case unless I could install placements 10, 11, or 12.

With all that said, it's come full circle. Buy the biggest ported sub you can afford.


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
2550 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Sorry for the runaround! Maybe it will be useful sometime in the future.

I would seriously consider one of the SVS PB12-Plus they have in the outlet, they are the best way to stretch your budget and come with a full warranty and in-home trial.


Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Psa 15v - $950
Psa v1500 - $1100
Psa v1801 - $1400

Svs pb12+ - $1000 ($1400 normal)
Svs pb13 ultra - $1400 ($2000 normal)
Svs pb 2000 - $800
Svs pb 1000 - $500

Looks like this is the list.
So, I'm in for $1k -$1.5k.... unless the low end svs subs will do the job.

I don't mind paying more if it's worth it. But I'm not a fan of paying a premium to get gold plating, features going unused, or more than I really need.
(You don't buy a stretch limo when an SUV will work just fine. But I buy napa wine over boones farm.)

I'm just not in a good position to estimate what I really need and the value proposition.

So, looking for advice. You still think the used pb12+ is the best option?
This post was edited on 12/6 at 12:22 am


Obtuse1
Wofford Fan
The Diversion
Member since Sep 2016
2550 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
quote:

I don't mind paying more if it's worth it. But I'm not a fan of paying a premium to get gold plating, features going unused, or more than I really need.
(You don't buy a stretch limo when an SUV will work just fine. But I buy napa wine over boones farm.)


Neither of these companies deal in "snake oil" so the only thing you pay more for is performance.

The thing is you have a very big space so from my POV bigger is better BUT I don't know how loud you listen to movies and how much power you want.

If you just ask me I would pick the V1801 from your list, it has much more mid-bass and really excels in the chest slam range.

However...

Given the fact you don't want to overspend on a F350 when a F150 would do the job I might suggest going the SVS route and getting a smaller sub, say the PB1000 or 2000. Why? Because although both companies give in-home trials SVS will pay the return shipping. So pick up one of the smaller SVS subs try it out in the 45 day period and if you don't think it is enough ship it back and get a larger one. You may find you are perfectly happy with a much less powerful sub, especially having been living without one. This is the lowest risk approach to ensure you get what you want but don't overspend. The Ultra 13 and 1801 are likely to be the most powerful home subs you have come in contact with and even the small ones are more powerful than the VAST majority of people own.

Building extreme sub woofer systems is a hobby of mine so I am somewhat jaded BUT I have set several systems up for friends and family with 700-800 dollar PSA and SVS subs over the years and even in big rooms "holy shit" is usually the response. It is easy for people who are deep in a hobby to sucked people into going down the rabbit hole, so I guess in the end I would say go smaller with SVS and upgrade if you feel like you want more, it is a rather painless approach.


Mahootney
Florida State Fan
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
7808 posts

re: New Subwoofer - Onkyo tx-nr676
Thanks for your help. Gonna have to think on the pb2000 vs the psa1500/svspb12+.
This post was edited on 12/6 at 12:57 am


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