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re: What Soccer Star Comes Close to Pele's Greatness?
Posted on 5/11/12 at 7:41 pm to Dandy Lion
Posted on 5/11/12 at 7:41 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
so, how many WCs has he won, eight?
3
1
Posted on 5/11/12 at 7:47 pm to PokerPlayingTiger
excepting the Javi Martinez-like one, I think it's two.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 7:50 pm to Dandy Lion
don't get me wrong, I see from your avi that your hatred for all things Argentine is innate, and frankly, I cannot blame you. Not in the least.
But, he is far from undisputed GOAT IMO.
But, he is far from undisputed GOAT IMO.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:00 pm to Goose
quote:
Goose
Your arguments are much more substantial than Dandy Lion's. I will agree with you that Zidane > Maradona. I am not sure where I place Zidane but it could possibly be as high as #2. I would definitely have him at 2 or 3.
Here's my opinion on some of your thoughts.
quote:
They were the best international team. See, most international squads are comprised of players from many different clubs. There is an adjustment period, as these players do not play together much and therefore don't have the team chemistry built in from playing together a lot. This wasn't so for the 1970 Brazil team.
You make a valid point but I hope you are not implying that the Brazil national team played together more often than the Italians, Germans, Spanish, or Argentinians. Just because the players played in Brazil it did not mean they were always playing together. They played for different clubs, as you stated, and in many cases were rivals. So they only played together when the national team played which is in international competition and friendlies, just like every other nation.
Furthermore, the fact that all those players played in Brazil (and not Europe) should point to the fallacy of those who believe the European leagues were so superior back in 50s and 60s.
quote:
That is like saying that since Messi plays with two of the best midfielders in football today, then he obviously should be regarded as the best overall player. It doesn't hold water. I would like to see how Messi did with another squad, where he wasn't receiving perfect passes regularly and having more attention from defenses. I think this actually takes away from his and Pele's stock.
I agree with this. It was just a retort to those diminishing his accomplishments because of the team he played on. I don't think it diminishes Messi just as it shouldn't Pele or Zidane with the Galacticos.
quote:
Ronaldo has 15...
And if not for injuries then all of us may have a different opinion on the subject and this thread might be over.
quote:
I hate this stupid stat...
Hate all you want but it is fact
quote:
Zidane has won everything in football there is to win. Euros, World Cup, Champions League, Balon D'Or, Golden Ball... You name it, he has it. Although he only has 1 World Cup (where his two headers won it for France), if he hadn't lost his cool with Materazzi, he would likely have a second.
I have already professed my adoration of Zidane's game so I won't argue. I just think he is a notch below Pele.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:02 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
excepting the Javi Martinez-like one, I think it's two.
See, Javi got in garbage time of a single game. Pele came in as a starter and team leader, played 2 games and scored a goal. While far from playing an entire cup, he played a much bigger role than Javi. So your comparison is crap.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:05 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
I see from your avi that your hatred for all things Argentine is innate, and frankly, I cannot blame you.
While I consider Argentina an archrival, I do not hate them. I enjoy watching Messi play very much and appreciate his talents. I think Maradona was a phenomenal player. So it isn't a hatred of Argentina. Hell, Zidane stuck it to Brazil in high style in 1998 but i recognize his greatness and give him kudos for it. I just don't think there is a valid argument for considering Maradona over Pele. It is fodder for discussion and people run with it regardless of the lack of merit.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:13 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
I see from your avi that your hatred for all things Argentine is innate
But I must admit that watching from the 3rd row in Cape Town next to the Argentinian fans when Germany stuck 4 on them was quite enjoyable, especially after having just watched (and been ribbed) Brazil lose to the Netherlands the day before. I was so close to the corner flag that I could have spit on Messi if I wanted.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:22 pm to PokerPlayingTiger
I'm going for the childish argument now
Pele - lost his virginity to a man...
Maradona - Drugs and Cheating!
Zidane - Gentleman
Pele - lost his virginity to a man...
Maradona - Drugs and Cheating!
Zidane - Gentleman
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:23 pm to PokerPlayingTiger
I think the important thing here is Maradona got the shite kicked out of him in Europe for a long time, and much of us think Pelé was busy dancing and prancing, banging goals in off his arse, his nose, his ear, his hip, etcetera, in Brasil (and counting them all, friendlies, exhibitions, school inaugurations, bake sales, etc.).
The fact that he is so defensive of his merits doesn't help. I think he'd get on much better just laughing things off. IMHO.
The fact that he is so defensive of his merits doesn't help. I think he'd get on much better just laughing things off. IMHO.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:24 pm to Goose
quote:he's got good international PR, I could tell you stories about Madrid.
Zidane - Gentleman
ETA It's an Arab thang, and the decadence of a big city like Madrid certainly doesn't help.
This post was edited on 5/11/12 at 8:25 pm
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:25 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
he's got good international PR, I could tell you stories about Madrid.
He seems to get a little stuck in sometimes and losing it on Materazzi is a blemish, but what could he really have done to take away from his image?
Posted on 5/11/12 at 8:34 pm to Goose
quote:
He seems to get a little stuck in sometimes and losing it on Materazzi is a blemish, but what could he really have done to take away from his image?
He was no saint. His quiet demeanor fools alot of people.
This has nothing to do with him as a footballer, but since the inevitable attacks on Maradona come in on that front, well.
Don't get me wrong, I am no Maradona lover. I, as a Spaniard, hold Argentines as a whole in great derision (they are the worst 'race' in the world, predominantly a mix of Andalusians and Sicilians, who have a fixation with all things English), but many seem to wrest merit from him for his drug abuse and loony, taciturn personality.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 9:17 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
I think the important thing here is Maradona got the shite kicked out of him in Europe for a long time
agree
quote:
much of us think Pelé was busy dancing and prancing, banging goals in off his arse, his nose, his ear, his hip, etcetera, in Brasil (and counting them all, friendlies, exhibitions, school inaugurations, bake sales, etc.).
Well, you are mistaken in your assumptions. If you think Pele didn't get the shite beat out of him both at home and abroad then you are sadly mistaken.
quote:
The fact that he is so defensive of his merits doesn't help. I think he'd get on much better just laughing things off. IMHO.
I cannot argue that Pele is arrogant about his place in the game. While that is a turnoff even to his biggest fans, it does not change what transpired in the field of play.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 9:21 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
Dandy Lion
quote:
I am no Maradona lover.
Really? I was getting a different impression
Posted on 5/11/12 at 9:28 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
I think the important thing here is Maradona got the shite kicked out of him in Europe for a long time,
Van Basten begs to differ.
Posted on 5/11/12 at 9:54 pm to PokerPlayingTiger
quote:
Well, you are mistaken in your assumptions. If you think Pele didn't get the shite beat out of him both at home and abroad then you are sadly mistaken.
What is this crap? You simultaneously lampoon other posters for arguments holding no water, and with the other hand feed us corn fed troll feces.
For the record pele is NOT the top goal scorer when you subtract all the bologna exhibitions
This post was edited on 5/11/12 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 5/11/12 at 10:21 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
Who, in today's game even approaches his greatness?
KENNY COOPER and Brekkers just to name a couple
Posted on 5/11/12 at 10:45 pm to Jumbeauxlaya
quote:
What is this crap? You simultaneously lampoon other posters for arguments holding no water, and with the other hand feed us corn fed troll feces.
What troll feces am I feeding you? Pele got the shite kicked out of him both at home in the club level and on the national team level. He only finished 2 of the 4 world cups he played in. So I don't understand your point.
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