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Message
re: Would FDR turn over in his grave
Posted on 7/3/17 at 11:15 am to skrayper
Posted on 7/3/17 at 11:15 am to skrayper
quote:
I appreciate you telling me what I meant. Here I thought I had a grasp on that already, but clearly I was mistaken.
I'm telling you what you posted. You complained about people "judging" FDR. Only Jesus can do that you said. You made that comment in a thread where people were clearly explaining what they disliked about him. You then dismissed these substantiated judgments. I'm not sure where you think there is confusion.
quote:
The strawman was introduced by you, so don't try tossing it back on me.
What?
The strawman is you suggesting that I think Hitler and FDR are comparable or that my remark at all suggested that. It didn't and I already clearly explained this. So what strawman, pray would you suggest I have laid on you? quote:
I shared my opinion on FDR; I never said I agreed with all the things he did.
And I didn't say you did. Again, you are responding to things that were never said.
quote:
I'm just saying that a lot of times we get people who rant and rave against the "New Deal" that he was a major architect of, but no one on this board had to live through that. A lot of opinions on THAT subject from people who weren't suffering because of the Great Depression anyway.
Right, I heard you make this argument already and I expressed why I don't find that attitude particularly convincing or agreeable.
quote:
As far as his other things - Japanese Internment, attempting to pad the SCOTUS, etc - all bad ideas, all things I disagree with entirely. Those don't cause me to take on a rage boner for the New Deal, however.
Uhhh, ok. You're entitled to feel however you like about the New Deal, as are others. Also, I reject the implication that anyone here opposed to aspects of the New Deal legislation does so purely on account of disagreement with Japanese internment or court stacking. Again, you keep making strawman arguments.
quote:
You assumed a blanket application from a solitary viewpoint; my world appears to have more shades of gray than yours.
Yes, by disagreeing with your comments that we shouldn't judge FDR because we didn't live through the times, I must see no shades of gray. Again, your arguments and conclusions just aren't logically valid.
quote:
See, I just don't view things in this on/off switch that apparently others do. I don't look at Hitler (for example) and think, "Well, these other actions he took were deplorable, and therefor his tax plan was deplorable too" - I am capable separating and thinking, "Well, maybe he thought tax plan A was critical to his country" and then thinking "his actions against the Jewish people and neighboring countries were plain evil and have no justification".
So, my apologies for not being clearer. I don't have a single "FDR was X" lens to apply to everything he ever did.
Dude, what in the actual frick are you talking about?
This is another monstrous strawman and I'm about at my wit's end going back and forth with faux arguments.
2
Posted on 7/3/17 at 11:21 am to ChewyDante
quote:
I'm about at my wit's end going back and forth with faux arguments.
~shrugs~ Works for me. I honestly cannot tell if we're simply on different pages thinking we're on the same one or what, and my capacity for giving a shite is already fairly low. FDR is dead. So long as Trump doesn't suddenly turn into FDR 2.0, it's all historical debate and context that is more of a point of interest than anything substantively important.
However, I see where you're coming from. I don't disagree with you. I'm sure I've gotten more than a few things mixed up in responses while having this conversation. It probably would have been way more interesting and enjoyable as a debate over a couple of beers with some Irish drinking songs in the background (or Scottish, if that's your preference). I concede that I probably didn't even come close to accurately detailing my thought process.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 11:22 am to Bison
quote:
If he saw what Trump was doing to the national monuments?
What exactly is he doing?
Posted on 7/3/17 at 11:24 am to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
What exactly is he doing?
By monuments, I think he means the Federal lands that have been deemed as such by previous administrations.
I'm not sure how FDR would respond. I thought that was more
Teddy's thing, considering.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 12:19 pm to ChewyDante
Regardless of his egregious record, you do support the Four Freedoms, do you not?
Posted on 7/3/17 at 2:02 pm to ChewyDante
Posted on 7/3/17 at 2:38 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote: What prompted this level of hate towards FDR? as well as his court packing threats, fricking up our USSC and ultimately leading to the leviathan that we have today FDR truly fricked up our country before FDR, banning a substance at the federal level required a constitutional amendment to give the federal government the power to regulate it. after FDR, it took an act of Congress. let that sink in
SFP, sometimes I truly think you are my more eloquent brother from another mother.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 4:32 pm to 3nOut
quote:
FDR truly fricked up our country before FDR, banning a substance at the federal level
You haven't shown that.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 4:38 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
before FDR, banning a substance at the federal level required a constitutional amendment to give the federal government the power to regulate it. after FDR, it took an act of Congress. let that sink in
FDR was truly fricking evil. No wonder why he is a hero to the Left.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 5:08 pm to dwr353
quote:
He was a conservationist. Conservation is the wise use of renewable natural resources. Do not confuse it with the mis-guided concept of preservationists. Modern conservation supported by sportsman has resulted in sustainable, healthy populations of fish and wildlife. This is what TR wanted. After reading your posts, I am probably wasting my time pointing out the difference.
quote:
Unfortunately for the animals, "collected" in those days was an euphemism for shot and killed. Between the two of them, Theodore and Kermit slew 512 beasts including 17 lion, 11 elephant and 20 rhinoceros.
LINK
Posted on 7/3/17 at 5:09 pm to skrayper
quote:
What did he "know" was wrong at the time?
Well, he did know that the stock market crash happened in October of 1929, and that unemployment never reached double digits 12 months after the crash. He did know that unemployment peaked at 9 percent 2 months after the crash and then began improving to 6.3 percent by June of 1930, without any government intervention getting in the way of a market recovery.
Against the advice of around a thousand economists, our President (Hoover) decided to lead the charge of raising tariffs to "save American jobs". We all know what happened after that, and so did FDR.
Despite the evidence of government intervention making things worse by creating the conditions that predictably lead to unemployment, FDR decided to go full throttle and not let a crisis go to waste. His subsequent decisions adding additional layers of counter-intuitive government intervention promptly made things MUCH worse:
Doubled taxes
Made it more expensive for employers to hire people
Destroyed food
Broke up the strongest banks
Forced up the cost of living while forcing the standard of living down
Enacted labor laws that hit minorities the hardest
This post was edited on 7/3/17 at 5:15 pm
Posted on 7/3/17 at 5:24 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
Doubled taxes
Made it more expensive for employers to hire people
Destroyed food
Broke up the strongest banks
Forced up the cost of living while forcing the standard of living down
Enacted labor laws that hit minorities the hardest
"Roosevelt won 57% of the vote and carried all but six states. Historians and political scientists consider the 1932–36 elections a realigning election that created a new majority coalition for the Democrats, made up of organized labor, northern blacks, and ethnic Americans such as Italian-Americans, Polish-Americans and Jews. This transformed American politics and started what is called the "New Deal Party System" or (by political scientists) the Fifth Party System.[130]"
LINK
Some people saw it differently.
"historian James MacGregor Burns concludes:
The president stayed in charge of his administration...by drawing fully on his formal and informal powers as Chief Executive; by raising goals, creating momentum, inspiring a personal loyalty, getting the best out of people...by deliberately fostering among his aides a sense of competition and a clash of wills that led to disarray, heartbreak, and anger but also set off pulses of executive energy and sparks of creativity...by handing out one job to several men and several jobs to one man, thus strengthening his own position as a court of appeals, as a depository of information, and as a tool of co-ordination; by ignoring or bypassing collective decision-making agencies, such as the Cabinet...and always by persuading, flattering, juggling, improvising, reshuffling, harmonizing, conciliating, manipulating.[137
-ibid
Posted on 7/3/17 at 5:26 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
9 percent 2 months after the crash and then began improving to 6.3 percent by June of 1930, without any government intervention getting in the way of a market recovery.
That is just false.
"When Roosevelt was inaugurated March 4, 1933, the U.S. was at the nadir of the worst depression in its history. A quarter of the workforce was unemployed. Farmers were in deep trouble as prices fell by 60%. Industrial production had fallen by more than half since 1929. Two million people were homeless. By the evening of March 4, 32 of the 48 states – as well as the District of Columbia – had closed their banks."
LINK
Posted on 7/3/17 at 5:29 pm to Willie Stroker
Landslide re-election, 1936
Main article: United States presidential election, 1936
1936 electoral vote results
In the 1936 presidential election, Roosevelt campaigned on his New Deal programs against Kansas Governor Alf Landon, who accepted much of the New Deal but objected that it was hostile to business and involved too much waste. Roosevelt and Garner won 60.8% of the vote and carried every state except Maine and Vermont.[182] The New Deal Democrats won even larger majorities in Congress. Roosevelt was backed by a coalition of voters that included traditional Democrats across the country, small farmers, the "Solid South" (mostly white Democrats), Catholics, big city political machines, labor unions, northern African Americans (southern ones were still disfranchised), Jews, intellectuals and political liberals. This coalition, frequently referred to as the New Deal coalition, remained largely intact for the Democratic Party until the 1960s.[183] Roosevelt's popularity generated massive volumes of correspondence that had to be responded to. He once told his son James, "Two short sentences will generally answer any known letter."[184]"
LINK
Main article: United States presidential election, 1936
1936 electoral vote results
In the 1936 presidential election, Roosevelt campaigned on his New Deal programs against Kansas Governor Alf Landon, who accepted much of the New Deal but objected that it was hostile to business and involved too much waste. Roosevelt and Garner won 60.8% of the vote and carried every state except Maine and Vermont.[182] The New Deal Democrats won even larger majorities in Congress. Roosevelt was backed by a coalition of voters that included traditional Democrats across the country, small farmers, the "Solid South" (mostly white Democrats), Catholics, big city political machines, labor unions, northern African Americans (southern ones were still disfranchised), Jews, intellectuals and political liberals. This coalition, frequently referred to as the New Deal coalition, remained largely intact for the Democratic Party until the 1960s.[183] Roosevelt's popularity generated massive volumes of correspondence that had to be responded to. He once told his son James, "Two short sentences will generally answer any known letter."[184]"
LINK
Posted on 7/3/17 at 9:19 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
WhiskeyPapa
If you're under he impression citing FDR's popularity as a rebuttal to the remarks I posted about the effects of his policies, debate is not your forte, and our conversation is over.
If it's not obvious to you, I'll state the obvious - that popularity contests premised on giving away "free" stuff coupled with the economic ignorance of historians hardly makes for a valid contribution to rebut the economic ignorance of FDR.
Posted on 7/3/17 at 10:27 pm to Bison
Only from the waist up (late?)
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