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Started By
Message
“Winterization” of power plants
Posted on 2/18/21 at 9:54 am
Posted on 2/18/21 at 9:54 am
On wind turbines, power plants, and winterization..I can’t speak on winterization of wind turbines. I am not directly familiar with it.
But I can tell you every real power plant in this country has “winterization”.
What does this mean?
Simply put, most often, it means heat tracing. A wire that runs along a pipe. When energized, the wire gets warmed. And the pipe is kept above freezing conditions.
The pipe and the wire are then wrapped with insulation.
So why are things still freezing?
The amount of energy (and therefore, heat) in the wire can vary. As can the number of wires used to wrap a pipe.
So, how much to use?
Generally this will depend on the areas average temperatures during the winter, plus a little bit of added margin, just in case. Also, the importance of the particular line.
Every single pipe CAN be made to not freeze. But at some point a line has to be drawn and money has to be taken into consideration.
But I can tell you every real power plant in this country has “winterization”.
What does this mean?
Simply put, most often, it means heat tracing. A wire that runs along a pipe. When energized, the wire gets warmed. And the pipe is kept above freezing conditions.
The pipe and the wire are then wrapped with insulation.
So why are things still freezing?
The amount of energy (and therefore, heat) in the wire can vary. As can the number of wires used to wrap a pipe.
So, how much to use?
Generally this will depend on the areas average temperatures during the winter, plus a little bit of added margin, just in case. Also, the importance of the particular line.
Every single pipe CAN be made to not freeze. But at some point a line has to be drawn and money has to be taken into consideration.
12
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:02 am to deuceiswild
quote:
Every single pipe CAN be made to not freeze. But at some point a line has to be drawn and money has to be taken into consideration.
Of course. That is business. Most of the posters here live in the south. You can spend an extra $40,000 to $50,000 to "Hurricane Proof" your home. How many people do it?
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:07 am to deuceiswild
Nope, we can have it both ways. We can enjoy low energy costs by not winterizing for rare events, and then complain when the low cost, insufficiently winterized equipment doesn’t work for a few days during the rare event. It isn’t like these people could have invested in a generator, stocked up on water and fuel, blankets, etc.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:28 am to deuceiswild
The amount of plants with eletric tracing is minimal. Most are steam traced. When the steam tracing condensates up it freezes. For the most part though meters and instrumentation is what froze. Small 1/4 to 1/2 inch tubing freezes pretty fast. There's so much tubing it's almost impossible to heat trace all of it. To keep communities safe plants have fail safes in place. If the instrumentation fails the plant shuts down. I work in a plant . I was at work Sunday and Monday night with a steam hose trying to thaw out the instrumentation. All night in 20 degree rain sleet. We tried to fight off the inevitable.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:35 am to GATORGAR247
I agree with most of this. Yes, steam is another way of doing it.
But I don’t agree when you say it’s impossible to trace all the lines, including instrument lines.
But I don’t agree when you say it’s impossible to trace all the lines, including instrument lines.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:39 am to deuceiswild
Power producers and electric distribution companies cannot gruantee power.
Been tell'n people for years to be prepared.
Neucular is a 30 year project, at least 10 for coal/lignite. I'm all bout private bidness BUT, the market has to be RE-regulated in Texas.
In 1979, Lake O the Pines froze over, 1980 was the hottest summer recorded in Texas.
We WHERE living on barrowed time.
Times up.
Been tell'n people for years to be prepared.
Neucular is a 30 year project, at least 10 for coal/lignite. I'm all bout private bidness BUT, the market has to be RE-regulated in Texas.
In 1979, Lake O the Pines froze over, 1980 was the hottest summer recorded in Texas.
We WHERE living on barrowed time.
Times up.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:40 am to deuceiswild
You don't have to agree. It's not just heat tracing the lines. You have to figure in removing insulation and heat trace everytime you work on the equipment. Then putting it all back. There's a reason chemical and oil refineries are on the gulf coast. That raises the cost of refining or generating electricity. Guess who gets to pay for that. The plant isn't eating that cost. It really boils down to economics.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:42 am to deuceiswild
You've left off steam tracing as a heat source as well as pumping the instrument impulse lines full of a glycol solution that will not freeze.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:43 am to deuceiswild
quote:And that is the problem with deregulation. When making these decisions, the cheaper options will tend to win out. If you regulate that everything needs to be prepped for a 100 year event, then you take that decision away from them.
Every single pipe CAN be made to not freeze. But at some point a line has to be drawn and money has to be taken into consideration.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:43 am to deuceiswild
(no message)
This post was edited on 4/14/21 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:45 am to mmcgrath
quote:
If you regulate that everything needs to be prepped for a 100 year event, then you take that decision away from them.
LMAO, you cannot afford this in any sense whether it is power generation or operating a private business... To even suggest it shows just how stupid you are when it comes to something like this...
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:51 am to mmcgrath
quote:Malinvestment isn’t an argument of merit.
And that is the problem with deregulation. When making these decisions, the cheaper options will tend to win out. If you regulate that everything needs to be prepped for a 100 year event, then you take that decision away from them.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:52 am to deuceiswild
It means turn on the natural gas!
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:00 am to deuceiswild
quote:
Simply put, most often, it means heat tracing. A wire that runs along a pipe. When energized, the wire gets warmed. And the pipe is kept above freezing conditions.
Heat tracing is primarily used for to condition steel for welding repairs.
Utilities have used it as a stop gap for cold spells, and some up north for seasonal runs.
But no amount of heat tracing or insulation can stop a cold spell like just occurred.
It will result in a shite ton of knee jerk reactions after the fact...see Fukashima mods in the nuclear industry post earthquake/tidal wave.
Ultimately, amount of heat tracing, insulation or green deal can prevent an act of God from interrupting our world time to time
edit - build power plants now! Co-gen natural gas (2 years from ground break to generation, and cheap) and deregulate nuclear immediately
This post was edited on 2/18/21 at 11:02 am
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:01 am to thejudge
I have seen low flow steam tracing freeze in the teens. And all it takes is a little water to freeze one leg of a transmitter and it can shut a hole plant down. Unpredictable shite.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:06 am to GATORGAR247
quote:
You don't have to agree. It's not just heat tracing the lines. You have to figure in removing insulation and heat trace everytime you work on the equipment. Then putting it all back. There's a reason chemical and oil refineries are on the gulf coast. That raises the cost of refining or generating electricity. Guess who gets to pay for that. The plant isn't eating that cost. It really boils down to economics.
You DO NOT have to figure on removing heat trace and/or insulation every time you work most equipment. Most of what is traced/insulated is not even "servicable".
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:06 am to DomincDecoco
We really can't win for losing. Our plant has a gas powered cogen that back feeds the grid. We can power 12 to 14 k homes. We shut down the units that were fed by the cogen to back feed the grid. Then the governor cut us off to allocate the gas to heat houses. We had to shut down the cogen.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:06 am to deuceiswild
Grainger - 6w per foot hat trace wire
you need 120v or 240v circuit to run the heat trace wire. typical wind turbine put out 600v ac. so in every turbine would would need to install transformers to run the circuit for the heat trace wire. you would have the dded cost and added weight for the cable, reducing the every day output of the turbine. you also would have to deal with the blades turning and having a connection to the heat trace that also turns
you need 120v or 240v circuit to run the heat trace wire. typical wind turbine put out 600v ac. so in every turbine would would need to install transformers to run the circuit for the heat trace wire. you would have the dded cost and added weight for the cable, reducing the every day output of the turbine. you also would have to deal with the blades turning and having a connection to the heat trace that also turns
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:08 am to 2020_reVISION
You have no idea what you are talking about. We strip every pipe and vessel in our plant on a 2 year rotating basis . We run UT readings to test metal thickness per PSM requirements.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:21 am to GATORGAR247
You in south la...9M?
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