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re: Why can't the US have univeral healtcare with the current budget?

Posted on 10/3/23 at 6:37 am to
Posted by Gifman
Member since Jan 2021
17539 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 6:37 am to
Leftists tend to look at issues in a vacuum. This thread proves it.
Posted by TDTOM
Member since Jan 2021
24761 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 6:39 am to
quote:

So if Universal healthcare is the answer


If you lead with this then you are already lost.
Posted by Tarps99
Lafourche Parish
Member since Apr 2017
11595 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 6:49 am to
There is too much money to be made on the legs of medical industrial complex.

Insurance
Copays and Deductibles
Clawbacks between Doctors and Pharmacies and insurance providers
Philanthropy
Government Funding/Taxing Districts for government bonds to fund building expansions
Nonprofits/Religious Orders - Managing Hospitals
Private Companies managing Hospitals
Outsourcing labs, imaging, emergency services, etc. to third parties that may or may not be in network
Advertising/Marketing
Medical Supplies
Medical Collections
This post was edited on 10/3/23 at 6:50 am
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 6:52 am to
quote:

Perhaps so, but it is not immediately evident. You seem more focused on payment than on cost drivers.


Cash - drives cost down.
Removing burden of healthcare education cost - drives cost down.
Removing government - drives cost down.
Immediate ROI for game changing innovations - huge driver for lower costs.
Return to free market - drives cost down.
National pharmacy program - drives cost down.

The entire program is about cost drivers and freedom. With all that you mention in later comments, despite all of that, if you show up with cash, the price goes down 50% in most instances. So yes, payment is a massive factor in this. You can't address cost drivers without looking at payment.

Right now, there is nothing that cuts the price of healthcare like paying in cash, on the spot. Nothing comes close. There is no other industry that works like this. Go to a bank and ask the cash price for a house, or ask a car dealer for the cash price on a new car and let me know where you get a 50% discount as the norm when cash is involved. It doesn't exist anywhere else in society.

quote:

Return to physicians the opportunity for ownership (aka control) of hospitals, and facility remuneration for clinics, and this crap will get slowly cleaned up.


That is precisely what the plan does. Return healthcare to the free market, drive cost down, increase your ability to compete, forge relationships with patients, and take control (as you state) so that it's you and the patient and no outside parties. This plan is removing barriers to do precisely what I keep hearing doctors state they want to do - practice medicine without so much interference.

quote:

Right now we have a system operated by Administrators who talk efficiency, but lack knowledge to affect it. Their bonuses are often entirely revenue based, meaning if they cut quality, and raise prices, they collect larger bonuses. Meanwhile, they control large community systems of hospitals and clinics.

Given that control, they are able pressure community MDs out of private practice, and into employment, monopolizing the market as they do. Once employed, doctors are pressured to do hospital bidding, and hospitals are free to renegotiate (i.e., escalate) charges.


Understood. Similar to issues that affect other industries. Competition fixes a lot of things and this plan will open up competition.

Also you say hospitals are free to escalate charges - no they aren't. The patient has a say in this. Patient is rendering payment.

The entire program is about cost drivers and freedom.



Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:06 am to
quote:

E.g., Medicare tells hospital administrators it will cut their reimbursement if their patients complain of post-disharge pain. The hospital ramps up pressure on all fronts to get docs to more liberally prescribe narcotics. A national addiction crisis follows, for which pharmaceutical companies get blamed.


Medicare essentially disappears under this plan. The situation is worse than you let on, however. Nursing homes and similar venues get screwed by the government on reimbursement, and hence they game the entire patient care program to maximize reimbursement. ADL scores are manipulated and so forth. I'm co-author on some papers addressing this. All of this comes from government, which is almost entirely eliminated with this plan. I only keep residential care stuff alive, but it is redundant to the debit card.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135660 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:25 am to
quote:

Medicare essentially disappears under this plan.
You missed the larger point. Who will drive pricing and policy?
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:28 am to
Because education is totally similar to insurance or healthcare
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:29 am to
You clearly have very little understanding of how this stuff works
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:29 am to
Does health insurance currently cover any of those things??
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
135660 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:33 am to
quote:

Does health insurance currently cover any of those things??


Food stamps cover groceries. What point did you imagine you were making?
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
62601 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:33 am to
quote:

Because education is totally similar to insurance or healthcare
Indeed. The scope and competency required for implementing medical care is several orders of magnitude higher. So tell us how is a government failing at the simple case… going to succeed at the more complex case?
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:34 am to
quote:

Food stamps cover groceries. What point did you imagine you were making?


Yeah and food stamps are at least in theory supposed to be limited to those that need them, not everyone who steps into a grocery story.

Even the strawman you tried to build was bad.
Posted by CleverUserName
Member since Oct 2016
16308 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:36 am to
quote:

do you expect they’d let their other children starve to death? Or would they steal to feed their kids?


Orrr.. stay with me here… orrrrr they could work and feed them. Why does that never make your merry band of idiot’s list to support kids? It’s always government government government.

quote:

If I was in that situation, I certainly wouldn’t let my kid die so we could spend more on guns a congressman’s brother in law manufactured for our military.


We can just get some of Menendez’s gold bars or Joe’s and Hunter’s China and Ukraine cash to make up for it.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:39 am to
quote:

You missed the larger point.


Not so much.

quote:

Who will drive pricing and policy?


You tell me. If I show up to your office and I have cash, and I'm sick - what then?
Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:43 am to
quote:

The scope and competency required for implementing medical care is several orders of magnitude higher


Thats why the government wouldn't be implementing any actual medical care

I think you are really missing the mark here. The healthcare market would change, absolutely. But there would still be a market (at least in my version of it, where it isn't just a free-for-all completely socialized system).

The government says we are going to pay X towards Y procedure. Some clinics will get their costs down so that patients have Y procedure completely (or almost completely) covered. Other clinics say "Hey, we employ great doctors. We have better facilities. We have lower wait times. We can charge more." so they advertise to customers saying exactly those things.

The government isn't setting which services or offered or how they are offered. It will influence the market, absolutely. And they will need to adjust things over time. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that it would be a better system day 1, but we also don't have that great of a system now.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:44 am to
quote:

You clearly have very little understanding of how this stuff works


It doesn't work.
Posted by dgnx6
Member since Feb 2006
86193 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:45 am to
quote:

We are in dire need of more doctors in this country and that need will keep increasing.



How many doctors were among the working age males dropped off in Shreveport.

Again, borders. That’s the problem that needs fixing first.

Posted by VolSquatch
First Coast
Member since Sep 2023
7668 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:49 am to
Some version of it works pretty well everywhere else
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:50 am to
quote:

How many doctors were among the working age males dropped off in Shreveport.

Again, borders. That’s the problem that needs fixing first.


We can do both at the same time.
Posted by POTUS2024
Member since Nov 2022
20943 posts
Posted on 10/3/23 at 7:51 am to
quote:

Some version of it works pretty well everywhere else


No, it doesn't.
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