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Started By
Message
re: What about using metal detectors in church
Posted on 12/30/19 at 6:54 pm to Wednesday
Posted on 12/30/19 at 6:54 pm to Wednesday
quote:
I’m usually dressed up for church, and court. That involves a purse (metal on buckles), jewelry (metal), belt (metal), high heeled shoes (apparently also metal according to the EDLA).
You don't need anything metal at church, unless it's a gun.
0
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:01 pm to Wednesday
quote:
I think that church in White Settlement, TX had about as perfect of a system as you can get
2 innocent people dead, and you call that anything close to perfect?
The bad guy wasn't even armed very well, it could have easily been a whole lot worse.
If you didn't have the one really good shot on security, the bad guy picks up the gun of the first guy he shot and kills more people.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:06 pm to auggie
Hand held would 100% have set off alarm bells. If the perp sensed he was about to be busted coming up to the choke point of scanning and freaked out right then and there, security manning the security equipment right there would be trained to look for clues that such is potentially about to happen and act accordingly. Same deal anywhere that has metal detectors.
If it's done correctly they are trained to profile and look for certain things.
If it's done correctly they are trained to profile and look for certain things.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:08 pm to davyjones
quote:
one would also think that it's a matter of having so many unsuspecting "targets" (don't like using that term but it's necessary for the point) all tightly grouped together in one relatively small space.
If that's what they want, there are easy targets everywhere. Restaurants, Coffee shops, bus stations The list can go on and on. These particular people want to shoot up places of worship.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:10 pm to auggie
quote:
Regular members have a pin or discreet decoration of some sort that signifies they are allowed to be armed.
Yeah so the bad guys know who to shoot first
How about folks just carry and/or have a church security team that is armed?
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:11 pm to auggie
I agree. And that has and does happen, for the purpose of maximum damage. But yes, inside church during service is going to be a key part of the terror plan.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:16 pm to HailToTheChiz
quote:
Yeah so the bad guys know who to shoot first
How does a non-member know what the pin means? He would have no idea.
The important thing is to stop the guy, before he can get inside to the congregation.
You saw what happened yesterday at that Church. Do you think that they had successful security?
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 7:19 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:22 pm to auggie
You’re not going to stop an attack with a detector.
You’re not going to stop someone intent on doing harm.
The first guy armed had an opportunity to take action and he responded in what appears to be slow manner. He stood straight up and visibly, slowly reached for his weapon.
He could have done things differently. Two people dead is horrible, but was a much better outcome than the alternative. Is that good enough? It may be all that some can hope for unless someone reacts sooner.
You’re not going to stop someone intent on doing harm.
The first guy armed had an opportunity to take action and he responded in what appears to be slow manner. He stood straight up and visibly, slowly reached for his weapon.
He could have done things differently. Two people dead is horrible, but was a much better outcome than the alternative. Is that good enough? It may be all that some can hope for unless someone reacts sooner.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:33 pm to RockyMtnTigerWDE
My point is, don't let them ever get inside with the congregation. We have to start thinking this way.
" IT'S Happening!" and not in a good way.
You need layers of security, and armed people in The Sanctuary are your final layer.
" IT'S Happening!" and not in a good way.
You need layers of security, and armed people in The Sanctuary are your final layer.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:48 pm to auggie
This is unavoidably true. The most realistic goal, sadly, is to limit the carnage in such a situation. The A1 thing to head off is to allowing the fox to quietly slip into the heart of the henhouse, laying in wait. If there's a terrible situation at the point of metal detectors/security, that's unfortunately preferable to laying in wait in the middle of unsuspecting worshippers.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:57 pm to davyjones
At the main Entrance, you have him at a choke point. He's got problems going forward and back. Establish this security first, and the goal may seem unattainable, and discourage any attempt.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 7:59 pm to NorthTiger
quote:
I know this is a joke but two innocent people still died. Stop gun toting evil doers at the door.
What is to stop them from shooting outside the church when service lets out?
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:03 pm to NorthTiger
quote:
anyone who looks suspicious.
I'm not a member of a church but, I visit several local churchs occasionally. I have a legal LTC permit and carry everywhere. Do I look suspicious to other's, I don't know however, everyone looks suspicious to me and is why I carry everywhere.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:06 pm to auggie
Exactly. I've become friends with the guys that man the security choke point at my "home" courthouse. And out of curiosity I've asked some questions about the process. Of course it depends on the volume of people who are involved, but you aren't going to find many situations like such that won't have at least 2, typically 3 or more individuals running it. Someone's manning the metal detector, someone's scanning the people in line for suspicious characters and/or activity.
**Any and all security people at security choke point always at the ready to utilize any level of force necessary, at any given time, of course.
If it's done right, there's much more to it than coming up to an oblivious security guy who will be easily overcome.
**Any and all security people at security choke point always at the ready to utilize any level of force necessary, at any given time, of course.
If it's done right, there's much more to it than coming up to an oblivious security guy who will be easily overcome.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 8:15 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:15 pm to davyjones
Hopefully, if you do it right, it's a daunting thing for the bad guys to overcome, so you never know how successful that you really are. They never even try. That is successful security.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:35 pm to wickowick
The goal of security is early detection and non violent intervention.
Security teams should always be looking and accessing each and every person that walks in the doors. Every vehicle that is in parking lot or approaching g the building should be evaluated also.
It requires pattern recognition, and observational experience. With overlapping observers and proper training, very few things should escape early detection.
After that inital detection good communication, appropriate positioning and early situational investigation or interrogation is imperative. This can be done many times without the general congregation even being aware and often without the suspect realizing you are security.
Knowing the guy is a stranger, arrives alone, is in a disguise, and is acting strangely should have prompted interaction before he ever got into the sanctuary. A minimum of 2 security officers should have introduced themselves in an effort to evaluate and intervene. If he passed that stage and was allowed in sanctuary he should have been flanked by security at all times. When he stood during communion he should have had distance closed by security to arms length and any inappropriate actions should have drawn hands on escort out or to the ground with appropriate escalation of force as needed.
1 security officer in this shooting performed well. The team performed poorly and the 1st individual shot performed poorly. His carry position and his obesity caused him to react slowly and with maximum exposure. His relaxed posture before the weapon was present was careless.
Metal detectors are an option but there must be a balance between a peaceful welcoming place of worship and a high level of security. It starts with consistent situational awareness and profiling.
Security teams should always be looking and accessing each and every person that walks in the doors. Every vehicle that is in parking lot or approaching g the building should be evaluated also.
It requires pattern recognition, and observational experience. With overlapping observers and proper training, very few things should escape early detection.
After that inital detection good communication, appropriate positioning and early situational investigation or interrogation is imperative. This can be done many times without the general congregation even being aware and often without the suspect realizing you are security.
Knowing the guy is a stranger, arrives alone, is in a disguise, and is acting strangely should have prompted interaction before he ever got into the sanctuary. A minimum of 2 security officers should have introduced themselves in an effort to evaluate and intervene. If he passed that stage and was allowed in sanctuary he should have been flanked by security at all times. When he stood during communion he should have had distance closed by security to arms length and any inappropriate actions should have drawn hands on escort out or to the ground with appropriate escalation of force as needed.
1 security officer in this shooting performed well. The team performed poorly and the 1st individual shot performed poorly. His carry position and his obesity caused him to react slowly and with maximum exposure. His relaxed posture before the weapon was present was careless.
Metal detectors are an option but there must be a balance between a peaceful welcoming place of worship and a high level of security. It starts with consistent situational awareness and profiling.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 8:39 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 8:56 pm to Bleeding purple
Damn great post.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 9:02 pm to auggie
I’m in the minority here but I’m anti metal detectors. People are talking about people who look suspicious or difference. That is exactly the people Christ are with. We cannot turn our churches into secure fortresses. We are to be open and welcoming to the world not closed off and bunkered down.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 9:11 pm to LSU2ALA
You will still be welcoming, to well intentioned people.
Jesus said, I give you a sword, instead of a shield."
If you have enough swords, you don't need a shield.
Jesus said, I give you a sword, instead of a shield."
If you have enough swords, you don't need a shield.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 9:18 pm to Bleeding purple
quality security is dependent upon the illusion of security. there is no fence, human profiling, metal detector, camera detectors, numbers of guards, guns, trip wire etc that will be 100% effective in preventing an intelligent bad guy from doing great harm. quality security results when the bad guy considers the risk of failure is to high to justify the reward in the act. when the bad guy is suicidal their is no down side to the malevolent attack and it happens.
in this church attack , the protection response was very effective . a typical pump or semi automatic shot gun will hold 5 shots and the gunman got off only two. for certain there would have been three additional dead parishioners . shotguns do not miss at the distances in the church.
security, guns, bombs and suicidal folk are for experienced folk to analyze. be careful of arm chair kibitzing that disrespects the two who lost their lives protecting others
in this church attack , the protection response was very effective . a typical pump or semi automatic shot gun will hold 5 shots and the gunman got off only two. for certain there would have been three additional dead parishioners . shotguns do not miss at the distances in the church.
security, guns, bombs and suicidal folk are for experienced folk to analyze. be careful of arm chair kibitzing that disrespects the two who lost their lives protecting others
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