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"Trump has damaged our alliances" v. "we are no longer leaders of the free world"
Posted on 7/12/18 at 6:52 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 6:52 am
i hear both arguments, sometimes mixed in together. but can they really work like that?
Trump is being criticized for criticizing our allies publicly and directly. diplomacy is seen as a game of fine dining and PR blowjobs and Trump doesn't seem to be playing that way (I believe due to his nature and the PR points he gets from his base for "Being tough").
however, our allies are taking advantage of us, so is the argument they don't deserve criticism? are people really just melting down at HOW he's criticizing them? or is the scenario similar to how a poster put it last night: progs just want to be Europeans and feel Trump is criticizing their ideal?
however, Trump criticizing Europe for being bad actors is "leading the world". this invalidates the other criticism that is oft-repeated about Trump. the two arguments cannot coexist in a single, consistent political thought process. either Trump is decreasing the imprint of the US on the world or we're playing hardball with our allies in an attempt to lead hem and get them to stop with their behavior that is negative towards the US
it really seems like the left/prog arguments against Trump boil down to (1) Europe is so progressive and ahead of the US, and (2) Trump has literally no idea what he's doing and is acing randomly. these same people also bitch about our military spending while defending Europe's back stabbing that gives a major reason for a chunk of that fat. it's just madness
Trump is being criticized for criticizing our allies publicly and directly. diplomacy is seen as a game of fine dining and PR blowjobs and Trump doesn't seem to be playing that way (I believe due to his nature and the PR points he gets from his base for "Being tough").
however, our allies are taking advantage of us, so is the argument they don't deserve criticism? are people really just melting down at HOW he's criticizing them? or is the scenario similar to how a poster put it last night: progs just want to be Europeans and feel Trump is criticizing their ideal?
however, Trump criticizing Europe for being bad actors is "leading the world". this invalidates the other criticism that is oft-repeated about Trump. the two arguments cannot coexist in a single, consistent political thought process. either Trump is decreasing the imprint of the US on the world or we're playing hardball with our allies in an attempt to lead hem and get them to stop with their behavior that is negative towards the US
it really seems like the left/prog arguments against Trump boil down to (1) Europe is so progressive and ahead of the US, and (2) Trump has literally no idea what he's doing and is acing randomly. these same people also bitch about our military spending while defending Europe's back stabbing that gives a major reason for a chunk of that fat. it's just madness
16
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:00 am to SlowFlowPro
If trump doesn’t do what he’s doing now, in terms of calling out some of our allies on defense and trade, then it might never be done.
Don’t get me wrong there’s been some postering from past presidents on the UN and NATO but none have gone as hard as Trump.
I know each NATO country is obligated to hit the 2% target by 2024 but so far a thick majority of members that can easily hit that number each year aren’t.. and that’s not because they lack the funds. They honestly have no excuses.
I’m glad trump is hitting them now because whoever is leading the US in 2024 it will be an after thought for them to call out our “allies”
He also has every right to call out Germany on their energy deal with Russia.
Don’t get me wrong there’s been some postering from past presidents on the UN and NATO but none have gone as hard as Trump.
I know each NATO country is obligated to hit the 2% target by 2024 but so far a thick majority of members that can easily hit that number each year aren’t.. and that’s not because they lack the funds. They honestly have no excuses.
I’m glad trump is hitting them now because whoever is leading the US in 2024 it will be an after thought for them to call out our “allies”
He also has every right to call out Germany on their energy deal with Russia.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:05 am to SlowFlowPro
I'm not a huge Trump fan but his calling them out on defense is fantastic. If that will translate to less money spent maintaining bases abroad, he will have accomplished more than any President in decades.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:06 am to SlowFlowPro
Europe will follow our lead. They always do.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:07 am to Magician2
NATO is a symbol more than a real defense pact these days. i don't understand why people think if NATO dissolves, the world will break out in conflict. NATO has been involved in more atrocities abroad (see: the various Balkan conflicts the psst 30 years than it has defended a member nation.
the fact that Europe, especially Western Europe, outright refuses to pay its fair share (and has for some time), makes it even more symbolic.
the fact that Europe, especially Western Europe, outright refuses to pay its fair share (and has for some time), makes it even more symbolic.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:07 am to SlowFlowPro
Europe is a continent filled with numerous welfare states. They're accustomed to getting what they want without paying for it. Why can't NATO countries meet their commitment and expect to be a member? To me too many NATO countries are trying to play both sides of the fence. On one hand they want Russia to be held at bay with the US doing the legwork and on the other hand snoozing up to Russia and condemn the US. It always puts the US in a damned if you do and damned if you don't position.
This post was edited on 7/12/18 at 7:33 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:09 am to shinerfan
quote:
Europe will follow our lead. They always do.
agreed. this "Trump is making the US stop being the leader of the free world" is nothing more than crocodile tears
the left/progs don't want the US leading things. they frame this as imperialism all the time...but when it's TPP it's the end of the world?
the EU didn't make Europe as strong as it was predicted in the late 90s/early 00s (when i was in college in poli sci and all the liberal professors basically agreed the US was going to take a backseat to the EU). the EU is fracturing and faces impossible issues with debt and immigration. they're not overtaking the US anytime soon
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:11 am to Kino74
quote:
and on the other hand snoozing up to Russia
without Western Europe financing Russian oligarchs and the authoritarian Putin, Russia is a Third World Country with no power
Germany further financing the kleptostate with their new energy deal is just another example of this
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:15 am to SlowFlowPro
Anyone with working sense of sight can look at pictures and videos of all these international conferences to quickly realize who the most important person in the room is!
Hint it’s not lady from Germany.
Hint it’s not lady from Germany.
This post was edited on 7/12/18 at 7:20 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:16 am to STEVED00
quote:
Hint it’s not lady from Germany.
It's not the lady from Canada either.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:20 am to SlowFlowPro
Slow,
they have zero logical thinking. Nothing but full blown TDS.
In what bizarre world of contorted logic can you claim Trump is aiding Russia trying to break up NATO by getting the other countries to pay their fair share? Bolstering European defense spending helps Putin?
In what bizarre world of contorted logic can you claim Trump is aiding Russia by calling out Germany for getting so much of their energy from Russia? Shaming Germany to use less somehow helps Putin?
Zero logical thinking. Totally controlled by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Seems to me Putin should be pretty pissed off if he helped Trump get elected. He sure isn't getting much return for his aid.
they have zero logical thinking. Nothing but full blown TDS.
In what bizarre world of contorted logic can you claim Trump is aiding Russia trying to break up NATO by getting the other countries to pay their fair share? Bolstering European defense spending helps Putin?
In what bizarre world of contorted logic can you claim Trump is aiding Russia by calling out Germany for getting so much of their energy from Russia? Shaming Germany to use less somehow helps Putin?
Zero logical thinking. Totally controlled by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Seems to me Putin should be pretty pissed off if he helped Trump get elected. He sure isn't getting much return for his aid.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:22 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
If that will translate to less money spent maintaining bases abroad, he will have accomplished more than any President in decades.
This.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:22 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Several questions we should ask.
the fact that Europe, especially Western Europe, outright refuses to pay its fair share (and has for some time), makes it even more symbolic.
1. Why is Europe refusing to pay its fair share?
2. What are they doing with their money if not committing it to defense?
3. If defense isn’t a number one priority then why does NATO exist?
4. If defense is a priority then is it appropriate for the American President to criticize the European nations for leaning so heavily on the United States when many of those countries clearly have the financial means to be more committed to their own defense?
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:22 am to SlowFlowPro
Gotta love the obligatory down votes without one post in the thread to factually oppose the OP.
Total progressive move.
“People are gonna die!”
Total progressive move.
“People are gonna die!”
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:23 am to SlowFlowPro
He is absolutely ruining the USA's international reputation.
Since Reagan, the U.S.'s reputation has been of a sucker that can be fleeced and forced to apologize (or be embarassed) as to its prosperity and place as the most powerful nation in the planet.
Trump says frick that noise.
Since Reagan, the U.S.'s reputation has been of a sucker that can be fleeced and forced to apologize (or be embarassed) as to its prosperity and place as the most powerful nation in the planet.
Trump says frick that noise.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:23 am to Magician2
2% is not a new requirement. They are trying to reach that the standard requirement by 2024. Most countries met the standard during the cold war and they chose not too spend on their defense in favor of social spending.
[img]www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/02/16/military-spending-by-nato-members[/img]
[img]www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/02/16/military-spending-by-nato-members[/img]
This post was edited on 7/12/18 at 9:34 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:26 am to SlowFlowPro
I heard it described yesterday as "Trump is having the PARTNERSHIP conversation"
Partners (business) are adults and they do not need to talk or be talked to like delicate children. If one partner is not performing his responsibilities, other partner(s) will say it bluntly and - so long as this is remedied - move on with a successful "venture". If you CANNOT have that conversation, you cannot really be a partner. You are just acquaintances at a dinner party.
Partners (business) are adults and they do not need to talk or be talked to like delicate children. If one partner is not performing his responsibilities, other partner(s) will say it bluntly and - so long as this is remedied - move on with a successful "venture". If you CANNOT have that conversation, you cannot really be a partner. You are just acquaintances at a dinner party.
This post was edited on 7/12/18 at 7:27 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:34 am to udtiger
quote:
He is absolutely ruining the USA's international reputation.
Since Reagan, the U.S.'s reputation has been of a sucker that can be fleeced
this is actually a very good way to summarize my OP
it's 100% spot on
*ETA: and this wasn't even a DEM starting it. it all started with HW Bush
This post was edited on 7/12/18 at 7:35 am
Posted on 7/12/18 at 7:35 am to SlowFlowPro
So, how is all that Bushes', Clinton's, Obama's Patty Cake working out for us? We are being taken to the cleaners by our "betters" according to their 'civilization scale.' We are still the rude, crude colonists, playing with centuries of civilization over us. Trump is like this savant, knowing what is wrong, knowing what has to be done to rectify it, and lacks that civilized filter which prevents him from telling the truth. Much like the child alerting everyone, the Emperor has no clothes. They need to be told, or else they will play us for another 100 years! NATO countries are being exposed, "in public," for all to see. Now let them defend themselves, or pay up! Germany hardly has a military force. They went to an all voluntary force, and no one showed up to join. They won't even defend themselves.
Posted on 7/12/18 at 8:11 am to SlowFlowPro
Pushing others to go better is part of being a good leader.
Sometimes that's what it takes to put the best team on the field, and that is what leaders like Saban and Trump do.
Sometimes that's what it takes to put the best team on the field, and that is what leaders like Saban and Trump do.
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