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re: 'This is the alt-right: Richard Spencer's horrifying abortion rant'

Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:17 pm to
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:17 pm to
I agree. That's why I said it this way:

quote:

Libertarians should be pro-choice unless they actually believe a fetus being aborted is murder
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
80847 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:21 pm to
I don't know that it has to be in that stark of terminology, if there is some special significance to "murder" in your usage.

If it's an unjustified taking of life, in any variation, I think being pro life fits fine in a libertarian worldview.
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:47 pm to
If you think a fetus is a life then you think abortion is murder, right? You just rephrased what I already said in nicer words.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
126371 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:49 pm to
So he's in the mold of Margaret Sanger?
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
80847 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:49 pm to
quote:

If you think a fetus is a life then you think abortion is murder, right? You just rephrased what I already said in nicer words.



I think you'd generally be correct, in that exterminating a fetus for convenience would be hard (for me) to classify with some other variant of homicide. But I think I'd extend my personal definition more broadly than that, where even if I equated abortion to something less than murder, but still unjustified taking of life, I'd be opposed to it and could fit that in with a libertarian philosophy.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
126371 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:53 pm to
This is the premise of Idiocracy
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:57 pm to
Yeah,we are saying the same thing in different words.

Personally, I would not be comfortable with a fetus that I had a part in creating being aborted. But I don't think a fetus that hasn't developed to a certain point (idk what that point is, so let's use 1st trimester as an arbitrary point of development) should be considered a human and that people should be able to abort that fetus if they want to without the government getting in their way. The laws being proposed like forcing people to have a symbolic funeral are absolutely insane. That is where the libertarian aspect comes into play.
This post was edited on 3/30/17 at 4:59 pm
Posted by FearlessFreep
Baja Alabama
Member since Nov 2009
17742 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 4:58 pm to
quote:

Eugenics is evil.
Yes, but dysgenics is worse.
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:00 pm to
Who is purposefully breeding so their children will have bad traits?
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
80847 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:00 pm to
quote:

Personally, I would not be comfortable with a fetus that I had a part in creating being aborted. But I don't think a fetus that hasn't developed to a certain point should be considered a human and that people should be able to abort that fetus if they want to without the government getting in their way. The laws being proposed like forcing people to have a symbolic funeral are absolutely insane. That is where the libertarian aspect comes into play.



Well I agree, to some extent. I think generally, from a libertarian perspective (I'm not a full fledged proper libertarian, but I lean libertarian), it's either legal or not. I don't believe much in chipping away at something via legislation.

I do believe that pro life legislators/leaders should focus on convincing the country that they're right as to abortion, setting up an eventual law change. But piecemeal morality measures intended to make a currently legal action more difficult is at odds with my ideas about government.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
126371 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:04 pm to
quote:

Who is purposefully breeding so their children will have bad traits?

Their vote plantation masters. Keep them dumb and dependent and you'll have a steady crop of votes.
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:04 pm to
I too am not a full fledged libertarian. I'm somewhere between that and green party. I just don't see it as a government issue. If people want to abort their unwanted fetus that will cause a burden on society, why would society want to stop them? If the fetus is born, it's likely that the child wont have a very good support structure from the family. It's likely the child will have a shitty life.
This post was edited on 3/30/17 at 5:05 pm
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:05 pm to
Please tell me you aren't serious...
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
126371 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:08 pm to
If you put a system into place that encourages government dependency and doesn't put an emphasis on education the results kind of produce themselves don't they?
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:09 pm to
Damn son, it's like you're wearing two tin foil hats at the same time...
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
126371 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:12 pm to
Silly Aggie. Foil hasn't been made out of Tin for almost 100 years.
Posted by llfshoals
Member since Nov 2010
16975 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:13 pm to
From the moment of conception science has definitively proven it is an individual human being.

What you need to be honest about is your belief at what point does a human being have the right to live.

Wherever you think that point should be, whether the young haven't earned the right to live or the old aren't useful and should be put down just know that once you walk that road it ends with someone deciding for reasons that make sense to them that you don't deserve to live.

That is your choice, choose wisely.
Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 5:46 pm to
quote:

From the moment of conception science has definitively proven it is an individual human being


False. Please show me a credible source. As for the rest of your post, you're just making me out to be a bad guy now because I don't agree with you.

Simple logic would say that a zygote is not a human.
This post was edited on 3/30/17 at 5:50 pm
Posted by llfshoals
Member since Nov 2010
16975 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 8:01 pm to
quote:

False. Please show me a credible source. As for the rest of your post, you're just making me out to be a bad guy now because I don't agree with you.

Simple logic would say that a zygote is not a human.


I'm sure you've never heard of the law of Identity.

Simply put a thing is itself and cannot be anything else, A is A.

The law of identity requires that a human being at the beginning of its life cycle is no more or less a member of the species than at any point in its life cycle.

There is one way, and one only to create a human being. If this were not so you could invalidate the law of identity by demonstrating another way to do so.

Now getting back to your childish denial of science. I'm not sure just how stupid you are, but your example of "logic" isn't giving me hope your IQ is over room temperature so I'll start with the easy basics.

The human life cycle as defined on reference.com LINK

Now you could go with any basic textbooks on human physiology that will tell you the same thing and go into more details around the physiological changes in a human being as they develop. That's probably above your level right now but if you have a college library they should have something that'll work.

If not there is always Amazon LINK

Once you get the primers down we can move on to Taxonomy and the real advanced course The human Genome project and the science of Genetics.


Posted by AggieDub14
Oil Baron
Member since Oct 2015
14624 posts
Posted on 3/30/17 at 8:33 pm to
Wow you are an arrogant self righteous a-hole
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