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2
Posted on 12/30/19 at 9:53 am to Jcorye1
quote:
Erm what?
Pman can be a pain but he's right here
The only thing in general special about "better" schools is who goes there.
Take every student and parent out of a 3 star school and switch them with the people in a 10 star school, instantly, you switch which school is "good"
Posted on 12/30/19 at 10:34 am to ShortyRob
quote:
The only thing in general special about "better" schools is who goes there.
Take every student and parent out of a 3 star school and switch them with the people in a 10 star school, instantly, you switch which school is "good"
I would argue in many areas the faculty of schools mirrors the populace of a specific area. I think it’s ludicrous to think all faculty across the US in public or private schooling is 100% interchangeable with no ill effects or improvement on a case by case basis.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 10:35 am
Posted on 12/30/19 at 10:37 am to ShortyRob
quote:
Take every student and parent out of a 3 star school and switch them with the people in a 10 star school, instantly, you switch which school is "good"
You would need to switch faculty, staff and administration as well.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 10:41 am to ItNeverRains
quote:
I think it’s ludicrous to think all faculty across the US in public or private schooling is 100% interchangeable with no ill effects or improvement on a case by case basis.
Well, it doesn't go in both directions. Putting bad teachers in front of bad students is OK. Those kids can't read so don't put an Eng teacher who is an expert on Shakespeare in front of them.
OTOH, putting a bad teacher in front of gifted kids is a major problem. A GT 9th grader who wants to be a doctor is not gonna make it with a PE coach forced into general science class who says 'Today we're gonna discuss the difference between mud and water.'
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:26 am to ItNeverRains
quote:
I would argue in many areas the faculty of schools mirrors the populace of a specific area
This is true but it's still in line with my point.
That faculty follows the people.
Interchange the people in two disparate districts and in very short order, the faculties will switch too.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:29 am to jchamil
quote:
You would need to switch faculty, staff and administration as well
This would follow very quickly.
Good teachers would leave the district in drives the moment you made the switch.
That's the process.
Bad schools lose good teachers and faculty to good ones and the only ones left behind are people who can't find someone to take them and a few true believers.
Meanwhile, attrition takes care of the shitty teachers who land in good schools.
The "good" in good schools is who goes there.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:35 am to ShortyRob
quote:
The "good" in good schools is who goes there.
Sure, probably about 50% of what makes a good school good. You aren't getting good results with quality students/parents and shitty faculty/administration
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:36 am to Jcorye1
quote:
Erm what?
It’s fashionable on TD to pretend that the only variable in education is home life. It solves having any real discussion about education policy or reform.
It’s a stupid idea. Of course teachers and administrators have an enormous potential to effectively change student performance, especially just getting students to “proficiency.” It’s nonsensical to claim otherwise.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:45 am to jchamil
quote:
Sure, probably about 50% of what makes a good school good. You aren't getting good results with quality students/parents and shitty faculty/administration
You are missing my point. My point is that the latter reliably follows the former.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:46 am to the808bass
quote:
It’s a stupid idea. Of course teachers and administrators have an enormous potential to effectively change student performance, especially just getting students to “proficiency.” It’s nonsensical to claim otherwise
You are also missing the point. Build me a school district full of the correct kind of kids and I will show you a school district that very quickly will have the correct kind of teachers and faculty
Of course they go hand-in-hand. But good teachers and faculty don't go to districts composed of crappy people
And you can't kidnap them
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 11:47 am
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:47 am to claremontrich
By what metric are they excellent?
Exactly:
By my unscientific reasons, I would assess:
1. percentage of students taking the SAT/ACT score
2. Average SAT/ACT
3. Number of students that have passed AP classes
4. number of national merit semifinalists
note I did not list anything about college matriculation or where they went....
None of the above. Gotta get them early. Most important metric is PTA attendance.
Exactly:
By my unscientific reasons, I would assess:
1. percentage of students taking the SAT/ACT score
2. Average SAT/ACT
3. Number of students that have passed AP classes
4. number of national merit semifinalists
note I did not list anything about college matriculation or where they went....
None of the above. Gotta get them early. Most important metric is PTA attendance.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:49 am to ShortyRob
quote:
Of course they go hand-in-hand. But good teachers and faculty don't go to districts composed of crappy people
I think we pay our teachers better in Missouri. So our experiences may not be analogous. You can get good teachers to “bad districts.” But it requires excellent leadership from the principal and support from the administration.
Your argument devolves to all hospitals are the same as the patients they serve. It’s a lazy argument and stupid. You can abandon it.
ETA: there’s so many teachers applying for jobs in the greater St Louis area, that a principal could have 175 applications for a single open teaching position. It’s very easy to get high quality candidates.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 11:53 am
Posted on 12/30/19 at 11:55 am to the808bass
quote:
Your argument devolves to all hospitals are the same as the patients they serve. It’s a lazy argument and stupid. Y
Um. That's silly.
My kids showed up to school reading three grades ahead of the state average which might seem remarkable except for pretty much their whole class showed up reading three grades ahead of the state average.
That wasn't because the kindergarten teachers were spectacular.
Meanwhile in other schools there are clearly based on statistics kids showing up completely unprepared for even kindergarten. Effectively 3 to 4 years behind.
You can throw all the brilliant teachers you want in front of that and sure you will get slightly better results. But you will still get crappy results and eventually those good teachers you sent there will seek out jobs teaching my kids.
It's not a matter of the argument being lazy it's just reality. We don't live in an environment where you can force people to teach at a place
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:00 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
It's not a matter of the argument being lazy it's just reality. We don't live in an environment where you can force people to teach at a place
I think Missouri’s teacher retirement program incentivizes teachers to remain at their school. And the salary schedule does as well. So a teacher with a Masters+ could make $80k a year and if they left for another district they’d probably lose $20k-$30k.
There’s all kinds of ways to identify and retain teacher talent. Hell, you could rerecruit every 5 years with fresh faces and positively effect your metrics.
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:00 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
But you will still get crappy results
Don’t buy it. But I’m not a fatalist.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:02 pm to the808bass
quote:
I think Missouri’s teacher retirement program incentivizes teachers to remain at their school
you can incentivize all you like but as a teacher friend of mine who used to teach in at crappy School but switched for less money once said........ If my wife wanted to fear for my life every time I went to work she would have married a cop
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:03 pm to ShortyRob
But now you’re arguing at the margins.
And you’re also abandoning the “home as the determinant” argument.
And you’re also abandoning the “home as the determinant” argument.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:03 pm to ShortyRob
I completely disagree. Home life is the biggest indicator, but to say teachers, staff, and administration have no affect is laughable.
Posted on 12/30/19 at 12:05 pm to the808bass
quote:it doesn't matter if you buy a reality. Reality doesn't care
Don’t buy it
It's not fatalistic to recognize that culture drives education results more than anything else.
Note. I'm not saying do nothing and I'm not even saying that you can't help crappy schools.
I'm simply saying that they will never be equal or even close to the good schools.
Kind of like you can keep all of your coaches but if I give you nothing but one and two star players you're not going to the college football playoffs........ EVER
And eventually your coaches will leave to coach 4 and 5 Star players
This post was edited on 12/30/19 at 12:06 pm
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