re: The Palestinian Dream Is Dying—and It's A Nightmare for Israel

quote:

---

They were offered in 1948, 1967, 1994, 2000, 2008, 2019, and 2020.

---

Wrong.

quote:

---

I mean, even Israel disagrees with you on this, but OK.

---

I would want them to stay in the shitholes they created, too. But it doesn't change the fact that they have never been a country, because they have never accepted the challenges and responsibilities of being a country.

quote:

---

Again, you apparently have no actual knowledge of these "offers".

---

You have posted squat about these offers not being offers. Google is your friend. There has been multiple opportunities for them to have their own state. It's in the book history.

quote:

---

OK. What would they do with the millions of Palestinians they just absorbed by doing so?

---

If they want to live in peace as citizens of Israel, I have no doubt Israel will accept them. If not, they can frick off like I said before. Why should citizens of Israel fight and die for security and peace, only to give the land they had to fight and die for right back to the people who want more violence and death?

quote:

---

You've posted squat about how they were.

---

Educate yourself, shitbird. From the UN resolution in 1947, to peace talks and agreements that have been tirelessly worked on since that time until today, leaders of dozens of nations have proposed and fostered 2 state solutions through negotiations and meetings ad infinitum. Israel has agreed to several of these, the PLO none. Their reaction has almost universally been violence.

quote:

---

Why don’t they do it .

---

Well they tried and got their asses beat for their efforts. Look up "6-Day War" numbnuts.

quote:

---

What do you think damn near every president since Truman has been doing, trying to negotiate peace between Israel and the Arabs? Just fricking around, trying to convince the PLO that they don't need a country? What a ridiculous position.

---

Oh for the love of God. See, this is what I mean about you. You're either being disingenuous, or you just don't understand what you're talking about.

Just take the Oslo Accords to keep it simple. While the reason for the Accords was to deal with Palestinian self determination, at no time during the talks was a separate state a formal part of the offer.

The Jews own the Arabs. The idea that they’re on opposite sides and hate each other is a big con game

quote:

---

The Palestinians are wretched. If the Arab world actually cared, they wouldn’t be. But they prefer using them as a human wedge against Israel. So here we are.

---

You absolutely nailed it!!!

quote:

---

It's not a right of return

---

OK, which is was I laughed at the other poster who said that Israel would absorb all the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza if they took those areas over.

You didn't like my response, but now you're seemingly agreeing with me.

I'm not sure what you think your quote on their constitution is proving, but OK.

quote:

---

It's going to be a fun night with you two.

---

I guess, but you can start with not disagreeing with posts of mine with respect to which you actually agree.

There are several people in this thread who are half right. If they could get past their arguing, they might realize they can put their two halves together and get the *mostly* complete picture.


Here's a very simplified explanation of the situation (talking about the West Bank and ignoring Gaza since that's a separate situation):

There are 3 zones -

A Zone - 100% Palestinian, 100% controlled by the Palestinian Authority, both civil and security. It's illegal for Israeli citizens to go here. These areas are mostly the major cities inside the West Bank and their very immediate surroundings. Any official/overt security/military/IDF operations in the A Zones are formal operations, not just random incursions (I say "official" because the sneaky sneaky folks are in there all the time; they just don't admit it). PA security forces (something in between a military and a police force...the Israelis won't agree to them having an actual army) are confined *mostly* to the A Zone (although they'll be in the B Zones as well, just not with the same numbers).

B Zone - this is ALSO inside the West Bank and is SUPPOSED to belong to the Palestinians. Israeli "settlers" built settlements (villages of varying size and sophistication, mostly up high on defensible terrain) in these areas. Their behavior varies - some are openly hostile and some take a defensive posture. The Israelis use their presence as an excuse to control security in the B-Zones even though they are supposed to belong to the Palestinians. They don't do this with IDF forces, but rather with Border Patrol/Police. The Palestinian Authority controls some civil matters in the B Zones, but not security.

C Zone - 100% Israeli control, both security and civil. Consider this the "good parts" of the West Bank (water, farming, other resources). Basically, "the West Bank is yours, except we're going to keep this good stuff." Palestinians from the A and B Zones of the West Bank can only travel into the C Zone with permission (some do daily for business, etc....there are varying degrees of access).

"Green Line" Israel is the entirety of Israel NOT within the West Bank and/or Gaza. It's not necessarily all Jewish though. For example, Transjordan used to go all the way to East Jerusalem and they controlled the Old City. When they got pushed back across the Jordan River (during the war they started), most of that area became the "West Bank" (of the Jordan River...the WB as mostly on the EASTERN side of Israel). The Israelis kept East Jerusalem as part of Israel and gave those Arabs Israeli citizenship. East Jerusalem is formally Israel, but informally it's "the Arab side of town.: There are also a bunch of other areas inside the Green Line and C Zone that are Arab, but Israeli.

Disputes (in a nutshell):

The major disputes are over the B Zones, because they're supposed to belong to the Palestinians, but since Israeli "settlers" live in there, the Israelis control it with Border Patrol. This means that to go between the major West Bank population centers, the Palestinians have to leave the A Zone, move through the B Zone (and C if they have permission), and then reenter the next A Zone. The effect is that Israel controls all movement, meaning business/trade is quite difficult.

While they're in the B Zones, they're among a mix of Palestinians and Israeli "settlers", with mostly Israeli Border Patrol control. Lots of clashes happen between Palestinians and Israeli "settlers."

The Palestinians obviously want the C Zone as well since it's part of the West Bank, but that's mostly a non-starter since the Israelis own it 100%. (They're not giving up the Jordan River Valley, Dead Sea, or the resources.)

In actuality, the Palestinians want East Jerusalem too, and would take anything/everything else they can get as well - but that ain't happening. Thus, the real fight is mostly over the B Zones.

*Not all A and B Zones are the same. Some are completely benign and tame. Others are where all the shite goes down. For example, I'd let my family go from Jerusalem (Green Line) into Bethlehem or Jericho (both A Zones), but not into many of the B Zones and definitely not into the A Zones of Ramallah, Jenin, Nablus, or Hebron.

Disputes over East Jerusalem arise because even though those Arabs are Israeli citizens, that side of town is "theirs"...and the Jewish Israelis try to do the same thing there that they do in the B Zones - build "settlements" of Jews in the Arab areas. It's different than the B Zone situation because East Jerusalem is a part of Israel and everyone is an Israeli citizen, but it's the same dynamic - attempted control via occupation.

This just covers ONE facet of the overall situation and even this explanation is simplified. There's even more nuance to it than that. Unless you have lived, worked, and functioned there, you do not and will not understand it. It's something you have to LIVE to truly get. (<--- which I have and do)

Add in the bigger issues - terrorism, tactics, geopolitics, West Bank, Gaza, Israel vs. Hamas, Israel vs. PA, Hamas vs. PA, external funding/support for each of those entities, public opinion (often based on bad info), etc. - and you have an absolute fricking mess.

There is NO solution that will be amenable to both parties. Either the Israelis A) line up the D9s and push the Palestinians into the ocean, or B) they cede EVERYTHING to the Palestinians (Green Line Israel and all) and leave.

That's it. There is no two state solution. It's either A, B, or the status quo.