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Message
re: The Medium income Amercan Family now earns 1/2 the income needed to buy the avg home.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:16 pm to Powerman
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:16 pm to Powerman
I am one of those guys who love telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
That said, anyone who doesn't think there are real issues for young people today when it comes to home ownership are being intentionally obtuse.
My daughter teaches. My son in law works with me and has been on the job for three years and is making about $50/hr. With OT he is taking in about $150K. Together they make about $200K. They have a 4 yr old and another on the way. They're in a decent house, but it's old and needs work.
I make considerably more than they do, and I shudder when I hear the stories of their trying to buy another house. In our area, they're going to pay close to $500K minimum for a decent house in a decent neighborhood that they could possibly stay in the rest of their lives. I cringe when I hear stories of $3500 and $4000 mortgage payments. Yeah, they could be a little smarter with their money and savings... but even if they were.... that's a HUGE mortgage. And they make really good money compared to most their age.
That said, anyone who doesn't think there are real issues for young people today when it comes to home ownership are being intentionally obtuse.
My daughter teaches. My son in law works with me and has been on the job for three years and is making about $50/hr. With OT he is taking in about $150K. Together they make about $200K. They have a 4 yr old and another on the way. They're in a decent house, but it's old and needs work.
I make considerably more than they do, and I shudder when I hear the stories of their trying to buy another house. In our area, they're going to pay close to $500K minimum for a decent house in a decent neighborhood that they could possibly stay in the rest of their lives. I cringe when I hear stories of $3500 and $4000 mortgage payments. Yeah, they could be a little smarter with their money and savings... but even if they were.... that's a HUGE mortgage. And they make really good money compared to most their age.
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 11:00 pm
2
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:32 pm to Boss
Im throwing out 80k as a number because that is the median household income in this country, median as in middle
Where are these significant savings going to come from? I would not call less than $1000 a month in discretionary income significant - it is unrealistic to expect people to live a spartan lifestyle where they never go out to get a dinner/beer with their friends, never go on a trip to visit family. How are they supposed to marry someone if they never spend on dates? Middle class should not = live for work and nothing else
Thanks to society saying everyone needs a college degree, most people are not even entering the workforce full time until they are 22 and have a shitload of college debt to boot.
Right now the cost of living is such that 3/4 of the nation does not really have a chance at raising a family while being fiscally responsible. We are well below the birth rate necessary to sustain a population, the only reason our population is still increasing is because we are taking in so many foreigners
Where are these significant savings going to come from? I would not call less than $1000 a month in discretionary income significant - it is unrealistic to expect people to live a spartan lifestyle where they never go out to get a dinner/beer with their friends, never go on a trip to visit family. How are they supposed to marry someone if they never spend on dates? Middle class should not = live for work and nothing else
Thanks to society saying everyone needs a college degree, most people are not even entering the workforce full time until they are 22 and have a shitload of college debt to boot.
Right now the cost of living is such that 3/4 of the nation does not really have a chance at raising a family while being fiscally responsible. We are well below the birth rate necessary to sustain a population, the only reason our population is still increasing is because we are taking in so many foreigners
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:44 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
we have a birthrate crisis because 3/4 of the country cant afford kids
Wrong on its face.
The people still having multiple children also have the lowest incomes.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:50 pm to deuceiswild
quote:
anyone who doesn't think there are real issues for young people today when it comes to home ownership are being intentionally obtuse.
I don't think that's what gets argued.
I think what gets argued is their constant claim that these young people are the ONLY young people who have real issues with home ownership. That everybody before them got a 5000 sq foot house with their high school diploma or out of a gumball machine or 40 acres and a mule just for showing up to the town square, or whatever it is they seem to think was going on 60 years ago.
Like I posted upthread, my parents couldn't afford to buy instead of renting until they were basically 40 years old. These young people today are enraged that they can't afford to buy when they're 26.
Yes, some other times have been more favorable. But not ALL other times, which is what they claim.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:51 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
I would not call less than $1000 a month in discretionary income significant - it is unrealistic to expect people to live a spartan lifestyle where they never go out to get a dinner/beer with their friends, never go on a trip to visit family. How are they supposed to marry someone if they never spend on dates? Middle class should not = live for work and nothing else
Then maybe you're not really middle class.
Now what?
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:52 pm to wackatimesthree
Yes and no. Its a horse shoe
As to your other comment, given that median income is as middle class as it gets, you are saying that there is no middle class
As to your other comment, given that median income is as middle class as it gets, you are saying that there is no middle class
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 9:57 pm
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:55 pm to deuceiswild
quote:
I cringe when I hear stories of $3500 and $4000 mortgage payments.
Why?
According to you, they're making over $16,000 a month (before taxes, of course).
$12,000 a month (pre-tax) isn't enough to live on once the mortgage is paid?
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:56 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Yes and no. Its a horse shoe
O.k., but the "yes" side proves that the birth rate drop isn't about income.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:59 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
it is unrealistic to expect people to live a spartan lifestyle where they never go out to get a dinner/beer with their friends, never go on a trip to visit family.
What's realistic is to expect people to live within their means.
If they have $800 a month in discretionary income, that's plenty of money to go out and get dinner/beer with friends once or twice a month and save for a trip once a year.
And if they need more than that, they can get a second part time job. My parents never did that (we just lived within our means) but other kids' parents I knew did.
Where is all of this entitlement coming from? People didn't think they were owed a certain standard of living when I was growing up.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 9:59 pm to wackatimesthree
Im starting to question your reading comprehension
The left hand side of the horse shoe is people who are in poverty or lower class - they are not middle class. The poorest in society are hardly the model of responsibility
The lowest birth rate is the middle class, where todays cost of living is prohibitive to raising a family if you are financially responsible
The left hand side of the horse shoe is people who are in poverty or lower class - they are not middle class. The poorest in society are hardly the model of responsibility
The lowest birth rate is the middle class, where todays cost of living is prohibitive to raising a family if you are financially responsible
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:01 pm to wackatimesthree
Yes they can do all of that - but then they have no money for a down payment
If you end up saving net 5k a year (outside of retirement), it will take you over a decade to put together a downpayment that brings your monthly payment to meet your cashflow... For a starter house
If you end up saving net 5k a year (outside of retirement), it will take you over a decade to put together a downpayment that brings your monthly payment to meet your cashflow... For a starter house
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 10:02 pm
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:03 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Im starting to question your reading comprehension
I've already been questioning your intelligence.
quote:
The left hand side of the horse shoe is people who are in poverty or lower class - they are not middle class.
Exactly. So if they can have multiple children, how does it make sense that people in an economic class above them can't?
Yeah, they get government handouts. But those government handouts are still not worth anywhere near what "middle class" people make.
quote:
The lowest birth rate is the middle class, where todays cost of living is prohibitive to raising a family if you are financially responsible
So I should go tell the 100+ families I know having multiple children in the middle class that they are being irresponsible?
Ever heard of the True Scotsman Fallacy? You're putting on a clinic for it right here.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:05 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
If you end up saving net 5k a year (outside of retirement), it will take you over a decade to put together a downpayment that brings your monthly payment to meet your cashflow... For a starter house
Must be why it took my parents about 18 years of being married before they could afford to buy a house. Back in the late 70s, early 80s.
Of course, that kills the narrative that young people now have it worse than any people who have ever lived before them. Wouldn't want to do that.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:06 pm to RiverCityTider
It’s median, not medium.
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 10:07 pm
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:07 pm to wackatimesthree
"Exactly. So if they can have multiple children, how does it make sense that people in an economic class above them can't?"
- Because middle class people are generally responsible adults who are not welfare queens. We all know who the left hand side of the horse shoe is
Much of it also depends on where you live. Most 150-250k earners are in HCL locations where their quality of life is no different than someone making 75-100k in a more moderate area
- Because middle class people are generally responsible adults who are not welfare queens. We all know who the left hand side of the horse shoe is
Much of it also depends on where you live. Most 150-250k earners are in HCL locations where their quality of life is no different than someone making 75-100k in a more moderate area
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:08 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
The lowest birth rate is the middle class, where todays cost of living is prohibitive to raising a family if you are financially responsible
It has nothing to do with being financially responsible or being "cost prohibitive."
It has to do with prioritizing having a family.
Middle class Americans aren't having children for multiple reasons, some of which have nothing to do with economics. To the degree that they do, the main difference is prioritizing stuff over family.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:11 pm to wackatimesthree
7 year old article on housing costs impact on birth rates, and this was before shite really hit the fan as far as housing costs go
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 10:12 pm
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:13 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
Because middle class people are generally responsible adults who are not welfare queens. We all know who the left hand side of the horse shoe is
But that's a non sequitur.
That's what you refuse to admit.
Sure, they aren't responsible. But they are still able to feed and clothe and house their children with government handouts that are worth less than middle class people make.
So money is not what prevents middle class people from having children. It can't be.
The unspoken part of this that you likely will never articulate beyond "being responsible" is that middle class people might not be able to buy everything they want and grow the retirement nest egg they want and drive the car they want and live in the area they want and have the house they want if they have 4 children. That's what you mean by "being financially responsible."
And yeah, that's likely to be true. It was true for our family growing up. The difference is that back then it was normal to prioritize the family over the materialist shite.
Now it's normal to go the other way around.
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:14 pm to GeauxBurrow312
quote:
7 year old article
Oh, I'm not denying that that is the popular narrative.
Sure it is.
It's just not the truth. They're leaving out the same assumption you're leaving out.
This post was edited on 3/13/25 at 10:15 pm
Posted on 3/13/25 at 10:16 pm to wackatimesthree
Media narrative 
its the Institute for Family Studies, hardly MSM. And they include the citations for their data.
its the Institute for Family Studies, hardly MSM. And they include the citations for their data.
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