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The "Amazon Tax" and Seattle's Failure to Pass It

Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:26 am
Posted by CollegeFBRules
Member since Oct 2008
24240 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:26 am
Luddites have existed for centuries, often decrying new advances in technology as likely to push people out of the job market and into poverty and destitution. Thankfully this has proven untrue for the entirety of the time Luddites have existed, but we are moving into a new phase that is not likely to follow those old trends. If you haven't read Life 3.0: Being Human in the Age of Artificial Intelligence, you should. A few passages from the book are striking:

quote:

...the vast majority of today's occupations are ones that already existed a century ago, and when we sort them by the number of jobs they provide, we have to go all the way down to twenty-first place in the list until we encounter a new occupation: software developers, who make up less than 1% of the U.S. job market.


quote:

The main trend on the job market isn't that we're moving into entirely new professions. Rather, we're crowding into those pieces of terrain that haven't yet been submerged by the rising tide of technology.


The book is highly optimistic of the possibilities of A.I. to create a world where people are wealthier than they ever have been while having to work less than they ever have in the past, but there are hurdles that have to be overcome. One is, what do you do with people as technology displaces workers from the workforce, but not enough wealth has been yet created to provide enough income to people to replace the wages they have lost. Also, many people derive the meaning to their existence from the work they do, so even if you replace the lost wages and can cover things like medical insurance, how do you replace the lost meaning from no longer being needed to perform a function for society to continue to function.

What if you can't even replace the wages? USA Today had a good article on the failure of the so called "Amazon tax," which is a good foreshadowing of the reluctance of these companies that are accumulating wealth at astounding levels, while having fewer employees than past manufacturing companies that many of us grew up knowing.

quote:

After a bruising, month-long fight in which Amazon and other businesses squelched a new corporate head tax to fund homeless services, Seattle is struggling to find a path forward to deal with a crisis that's exploded in recent years.

Other metropolitan areas with rapidly rising housing costs are also grappling with residents priced out of the market. But Seattle's tax situation puts it in an especially difficult position when it comes to raising funds to help its homeless residents.

It could also be a warning to the 20 cities currently vying to become home to Seattle's second headquarters. Amazon stopped construction on a 17-story office building during the debate over the tax. It would have cost big businesses $275 per employee per year and was approved by a unanimous vote of the Seattle City Council on May 14, then rescinded by seven of nine members of that same council on June 12.

The construction pause "was a concrete action as opposed to just a threat," said Matthew Gardner, a senior fellow at the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a Washington D.C. non-partisan non-profit focused on federal, state and local tax reform issues.

"It seems pretty clear now that whoever 'wins' the HQ2 battle is very likely going to be giving Amazon a free pass on a wide variety of state and local taxes for some period of time," he said.

Called "the Amazon tax" by many in Seattle, the corporate head tax was meant to raise revenue to deal with the homeless crisis in the city and Seattle's King county. A count in January found 12,112 unsheltered people in the county, up 4% from a year ago.

The numbers come even as unemployment in the county is at 3%, the lowest in the state, according to the Washington State Employment Security Department.

The problem is two-fold, say experts.

Housing is becoming less affordable, leading to more homelessness. At the same time Washington's tax laws gave cities few options when it comes to raising funds for more housing.

Rents in the city have risen 42% over the past seven years, fueled by the growth in high wage earners such as the many white collar workers at Amazon.com.

In 2011, 35% of county rental units would have been affordable to to households earning below 50% of the median area income. In 2017 that affordability was just 18%, according to a report released in May by the consulting firm McKinsey & Co. that was commissioned by the Seattle Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce.

This is similar to the homelessness problem in many coastal cities, especially those with tech-fueled economies. Those rent increases have been partly driven up by an influx of well-paid tech workers. In Seattle, for example, software developer is now the most common job in the area, having overtaken retail salesperson, according to research by the Seattle Times.


quote:

"This is not the story of the last 15 years, this is the story of the last five years. This is that dramatic. This is that recent," said Alison Eisinger, executive director of the Seattle/King County Coalition on Homelessness.


quote:

Unresolved is the larger issue of how cities can deal with the huge urban impacts of unmitigated tech growth. Although the Seattle City Council has avoided political fallout, housing and homelessness remain issues that will need to be addressed, said William Riggs, a planning strategist and professor at the University of San Francisco.


LINK

Technology is not going to go away. It's not going to slow down or hold less sway over the economy. I have been to several conferences of late and the best solution these fricking tech gurus can come us with is universal income, even though companies like Amazon, foreshadowing a near future, is showing that the companies accumulating the wealth are loathe to part with it. So, what is the path forward in an economy that is going to throw everything we know on its head, and when dealing with politicians that are too easy to buy and not willing to break open the wallets of these companies to deal with a homelessness crisis they are creating?

This is a real problem, and one that we aren't looking at.
This post was edited on 6/18/18 at 10:39 am
Posted by Jack Bauers HnK
Baton Rouge
Member since Jul 2008
5702 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:45 am to
Why would companies strive to become profitable if their profits are going to be taken away to pay homeless people? People are homeless for reasons, not because Amazon didn’t give them a job.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89481 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:50 am to
quote:

This is a real problem, and one that we aren't looking at.


Good new is - A.I. is likely (not certain) to help end the "energy" question. Once that is resolved, then you will have a largely 2 class society - folks who behave themselves and get to do, generally, what they want and troublemakers who will have to be contained/dealt with. The basic needs will be satisfied by a nearly unlimited supply of energy (cold fusion or equivalent) and most unpleasant tasks will be done by robots.

For younger folks (mid-20s or younger), this will almost certainly happen in your lifetime - that revolution is coming (really overdue). The problem will be - all these third world shitholes who only produce violent, angry, backward folks at a huge clip will have to undergo a rapid sociological change. Otherwise, that won't be pretty.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259935 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:52 am to
quote:

I have been to several conferences of late and the best solution these fricking tech gurus can come us with is universal income,


It's going to happen, just probably not a significant amount in any of our lifetimes.

Posted by Centinel
Idaho
Member since Sep 2016
43319 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:54 am to
...and when it happens, the first thing politicians will do will be to run on the campaign promise of increasing the UBI.

At which point it's just a matter of time.

Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259935 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:55 am to
quote:

Rents in the city have risen 42% over the past seven years, fueled by the growth in high wage earners such as the many white collar workers at Amazon.com.


One solution is to look at zoning and other regulations that deal with housing. It's a major problem in Seattle and San Fran.
Posted by Centinel
Idaho
Member since Sep 2016
43319 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:57 am to
quote:

One solution is to look at zoning and other regulations that deal with housing. It's a major problem in Seattle and San Fran.


Like the rich NIMBYs in both cities are even going to entertain the notion of letting the poors live near them.
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
37031 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 10:58 am to
quote:

So, what is the path forward in an economy that is going to throw everything we know on its head, and when dealing with politicians that are too easy to buy and not willing to break open the wallets of these companies to deal with a homelessness crisis they are creating?



AI / robotics are going to come at huge initial cost - a cost so big that it will delay implementation.

Think of what happens when your a/c goes out.

I guess, in theory, we could get to the point where a robot drives to your house, gets out, walks in your house, interacts with the resident, diags the problem, gets the part, fixes it, moves to next job.

But most a/c companies are small shops. They will never be able to afford that technology.

All of this talk of AI shows what is possible, it doesn't account for the very real costs of all this tech. Which is why I think it will continue to be limited in actual use. I also think this gives us time to figure it out.

I think the key is, to start now with the kids in school, in guiding them to career paths that won't likely be taken over by AI. We have enough job openings in many of these fields that this should not be an issue. However, this is going to require some honest conversations with our kids. It's going to require telling kids, no, you can't get a degree in women's art studies, etc.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259935 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 11:00 am to
quote:

Like the rich NIMBYs in both cities are even going to entertain the notion of letting the poors live near them


If you spend time in either of these two cities you'll find the people are extremely snobby. Their social justice crap is to cleanse their quilt about being snobby and exclusive.
Posted by 50_Tiger
Dallas TX
Member since Jan 2016
39979 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 11:04 am to
quote:

However, this is going to require some honest conversations with our kids. It's going to require telling kids, no, you can't get a degree in women's art studies, etc.


Borderline crime to be a parent and not move your kid in the direction of some type of coding class.

Self Healing AI is still far away.
Posted by Centinel
Idaho
Member since Sep 2016
43319 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 11:06 am to
quote:

If you spend time in either of these two cities you'll find the people are extremely snobby. Their social justice crap is to cleanse their quilt about being snobby and exclusive.



Oh I'm well aware. I've been to SF multiple times, and the wife's family is from Seattle so I'm there at least a couple times a year. Not to mention how blindingly white both places are.
Posted by DallasTiger11
Los Angeles
Member since Mar 2004
11804 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 11:34 am to
quote:

I guess, in theory, we could get to the point where a robot drives to your house, gets out, walks in your house, interacts with the resident, diags the problem, gets the part, fixes it, moves to next job.

True but we are a very long way away from this kind of AI. Not in any of our liftetimes.
Posted by CollegeFBRules
Member since Oct 2008
24240 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:20 pm to
quote:

People are homeless for reasons, not because Amazon didn’t give them a job.


As implied in the article, the growing issue Seattle is facing is a very new problem and is created by the success of Amazon making the city less affordable for the people being driven out of the housing market.
Posted by CollegeFBRules
Member since Oct 2008
24240 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:22 pm to
quote:

Good new is - A.I. is likely (not certain) to help end the "energy" question. Once that is resolved, then you will have a largely 2 class society - folks who behave themselves and get to do, generally, what they want and troublemakers who will have to be contained/dealt with. The basic needs will be satisfied by a nearly unlimited supply of energy (cold fusion or equivalent) and most unpleasant tasks will be done by robots.


This will be a huge accomplishment, and it will be necessary for the new technologies alreadybstarting to develop. The energy intensity of verifying blockchains is a good example of this.
Posted by CollegeFBRules
Member since Oct 2008
24240 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:24 pm to
quote:

It's going to happen, just probably not a significant amount in any of our lifetimes.


Yeah, it’s going to happen. I don’t even know that there is another way. But it still begs the question on how do you keep from erasing the life meaning people derive from performing their job, even if you replace their income with UBI.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
259935 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:30 pm to
quote:

But it still begs the question on how do you keep from erasing the life meaning people derive from performing their job, even if you replace their income with UBI.


Most people are built to create or accomplish. However by the time automation takes over I imagine we'll have a population mostly comprised of people who aren't

Technical and social advances may have horrible consequences, mainly the human spirit.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
134845 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:30 pm to
Posted by CollegeFBRules
Member since Oct 2008
24240 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:40 pm to
quote:

Most people are built to create or accomplish. However by the time automation takes over I imagine we'll have a population mostly comprised of people who aren't

Technical and social advances may have horrible consequences, mainly the human spirit.


Maybe people will find new things to pour those energies into that we can’t even conceive of today. I hope so, at least. All the wealth creation in the world is pointless and misguided if it destroys the human spirit in the process.
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
37031 posts
Posted on 6/18/18 at 4:59 pm to
quote:

True but we are a very long way away from this kind of AI. Not in any of our liftetimes.


Exactly, which is why I don't fear the pending loss of jobs as much as some of these "futurists" do.

We need to be thinking about it, but we don't need to overreact or freak out about it.
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