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Started By
Message
Talk to Your Friends About Their Woke Breaking Point
Posted on 6/29/20 at 11:00 am
Posted on 6/29/20 at 11:00 am
quote:
There should always be a line that, once crossed, signifies to someone that the ostensibly good or noble thing they currently support has soured or, as the case may be, gone completely bad. We all know the history of the twentieth century (or, so I delude myself into believing). Certain features of the Woke ideology, even if only on its extreme fringe, show shocking potential for being a totalitarian nightmare unfolding before our eyes, especially because so many good and decent people so vigorously (and viciously) support it all of a sudden. Even the rapidity with which it is spreading is disorienting, and thus alarming.
I realized the importance of establishing a “Woke breaking point” the other night while discussing the bizarre defenses of our current era with a brilliant friend. We were talking about the people in our lives who have hit their Woke breaking points and those who haven’t. It struck me that many of the people in my life who remain sympathetic or outright denialist about the excesses of the Woke (Critical Social Justice) movement haven’t grappled with the possibility that it isn’t quite the noble and necessary cause that it sells itself to be.
quote:
The question to pose, then, is simple enough: What would it take for you to say that the Woke movement has gone too far?
Not a bad start to a discussion with your Woke friends. Not at work obviously.
LINK
This isn’t heady, super-intellectual stuff. But it’s a decent point.
A couple other good reads I found from this are:
From the same blog:
The Diversity Delusion
The Influence of Anti-Racist-Scholarship at Evergreen College
I think I’ll be going down the Evergreen College rabbit hole today.
And a link to an epistemological overview of “White Fragility.”
LINK
8
Posted on 6/29/20 at 11:56 am to the808bass
I've shut down three people in RL with one argument. Very easy.
If they are saying racism can not be celebrated, so remove all racist...blah blah nonsense.
Ask them if slavery of any form is okay. Then ask them is homophobia is okay. Ask them are they the same level of evil? 90 percent will of course agree.
Then break it out.
Ask them if Muhammed the prophet should be cancelled and removed from the Koran. He captured, owned, sold slavery in African, Eastern Europe, and other places. Remind them before they answer they absolutely said slavery is evil just like racism. REALLY press them on it. Force them to squirm, they will, I promise.
Then say well okay, let's talk homophobic. In fact let's talk not only homophobic, but also very adament about women belonging in the household and being beneath men. That's wrong, correct? Evil? Vile? Well..that was MLK Jr. So by your own claims, we should remove all glorification of the Civil rights leader. Who cares what he did, what he accomplished, he was evil by our standards today, and we can't celebrate evil.
This forces them into a corner. They will either.
1. Say they aren't talking about this and it's nonsense to compare the two - Don't let it go. Press hard if this is what they try. Force them to admit they only have an issue when it's white evil. They have to, there is no escape at this point if you set it up well.
2. That is wrong but I can't judge other people like I do myself - This is pure white guilt 101. Force them into a corner claiming they are straight(if they are), so they are the oppressor of gay people as MLK Jr was. Why is this sin forgivable suddenly?
3. You are right....will of course rarely happen. If you really push them and get them angry they might break because they realize the true absurdity of their claims. Throw in other things. Mercedes was built by Nazi's, should all be banned? Fanta was drank by Nazi's specifically, it's now an oppressive reminder and must not be tolerated. Remind them Democrats were slave owners, and don't let them try to party switch thing, harp on the word itself Democrat is the EXACT party representation of the slave owners. Say black people have to feel oppressed when they vote Democrat, because they were slave owners.
This really has worked quite well for me. Be aggressive and force them into a corner.
If they are saying racism can not be celebrated, so remove all racist...blah blah nonsense.
Ask them if slavery of any form is okay. Then ask them is homophobia is okay. Ask them are they the same level of evil? 90 percent will of course agree.
Then break it out.
Ask them if Muhammed the prophet should be cancelled and removed from the Koran. He captured, owned, sold slavery in African, Eastern Europe, and other places. Remind them before they answer they absolutely said slavery is evil just like racism. REALLY press them on it. Force them to squirm, they will, I promise.
Then say well okay, let's talk homophobic. In fact let's talk not only homophobic, but also very adament about women belonging in the household and being beneath men. That's wrong, correct? Evil? Vile? Well..that was MLK Jr. So by your own claims, we should remove all glorification of the Civil rights leader. Who cares what he did, what he accomplished, he was evil by our standards today, and we can't celebrate evil.
This forces them into a corner. They will either.
1. Say they aren't talking about this and it's nonsense to compare the two - Don't let it go. Press hard if this is what they try. Force them to admit they only have an issue when it's white evil. They have to, there is no escape at this point if you set it up well.
2. That is wrong but I can't judge other people like I do myself - This is pure white guilt 101. Force them into a corner claiming they are straight(if they are), so they are the oppressor of gay people as MLK Jr was. Why is this sin forgivable suddenly?
3. You are right....will of course rarely happen. If you really push them and get them angry they might break because they realize the true absurdity of their claims. Throw in other things. Mercedes was built by Nazi's, should all be banned? Fanta was drank by Nazi's specifically, it's now an oppressive reminder and must not be tolerated. Remind them Democrats were slave owners, and don't let them try to party switch thing, harp on the word itself Democrat is the EXACT party representation of the slave owners. Say black people have to feel oppressed when they vote Democrat, because they were slave owners.
This really has worked quite well for me. Be aggressive and force them into a corner.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 11:59 am to the808bass
The attack on Kavenaugh is what did me in and put me on the trump train. Kavenaugh has never had 1 single issue until he was nominated by Trump and his record is fantastic. Destroying a man and his family just because you’re pissy that Clinton lost is what made me break away from the dems.
Well also the dems nominating Clinton, that pissed me off more than anything.
Well also the dems nominating Clinton, that pissed me off more than anything.
This post was edited on 6/29/20 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 6/29/20 at 12:01 pm to the808bass
A normal person wouldn't have "woke" friends. 
Posted on 6/29/20 at 12:01 pm to the808bass
quote:
Talk to Your Friends About Their Woke Breaking Point
This is why I have a very select, few friends...
Posted on 6/29/20 at 12:55 pm to the808bass
bump-worthy
Posted on 6/29/20 at 1:18 pm to Gatorbait2008
quote:
This really has worked quite well for me. Be aggressive and force them into a corner.
It can be much shorter and with no aggression.
This really happened to me:
Prof: 'Multiculturalism and diversity are our strengths.
Me: 'So, you're fine with cutting off girl's clits at the age of 12?'
Prof: 'Uh, well uh (realizing the trap I put him in) well, uh. That's a tough one to answer. Let's move on.'
Posted on 6/29/20 at 1:27 pm to the808bass
I don't think it's all that complicated. I recently red-pilled a colleague and die hard Bernie supporter by asking him two simple questions.
First, do you believe that the establishment politicians in D.C. are only looking out for their best interests and never do anything for the good of the people?
Second, if yes (it will be), if you know they're disingenuous hacks, why do you hate a man (Trump) who all those people tell you to hate?
Dude called me back two days later to tell me he was pulling the trigger for Trump in November.
First, do you believe that the establishment politicians in D.C. are only looking out for their best interests and never do anything for the good of the people?
Second, if yes (it will be), if you know they're disingenuous hacks, why do you hate a man (Trump) who all those people tell you to hate?
Dude called me back two days later to tell me he was pulling the trigger for Trump in November.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 1:40 pm to Zach
quote:
Multiculturalism and diversity are our strengths.
These past weeks have make me looking at my culture and tradition. Im Viet and being an westernized immigrant, I didn't understand some of things Vietnamese cultures do like anniversary ritual holidays for dead grandparents or a one week new year celebration. Then I realized that its purpose is to unify the family and community. When everyone has the same value and tradition, everyone is on the same page all all times. You don't have to fight the never-ending battle of "tolerance" or "embrace" or complain about "racial inequality". It's a beautiful thing.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 2:01 pm to the808bass
Big fan of James Lindsay.
New Discourses put out a good primer on how we got here by Helen Pluckrose last week. It's on the podcast but the YouTube is here:
LINK
New Discourses put out a good primer on how we got here by Helen Pluckrose last week. It's on the podcast but the YouTube is here:
LINK
Posted on 6/29/20 at 2:50 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Big fan of James Lindsay.
I like James, but he calls Trump the first Postmodern president. He tries to lump Trump in with all the Woke people, but never gives examples of Trumps postmodern thought or practices. The only examples he ever has (and correctly) are the Marxist revolutionaries. He always talks about changing your mind based on evidence, well give me the evidence Trump is postmodern/critial Theorist.
This post was edited on 6/29/20 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 6/29/20 at 2:55 pm to AaronDeTiger
I don't have any "woke" friends.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 3:04 pm to Pettifogger
Thanks for the link.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 3:05 pm to Gatorbait2008
quote:
Ask them if slavery of any form is okay. Then ask them is homophobia is okay. Ask them are they the same level of evil? 90 percent will of course agree.
Arguing with 4th graders? Euro gays tend to be smart and successful people and can add a tremendous amount to our culture. It's the low IQ third worlders we continue to import who will decide the future of this country and you are worried about gays
This post was edited on 6/29/20 at 3:06 pm
Posted on 6/29/20 at 3:05 pm to AaronDeTiger
quote:
He tries to lump Trump in with all the Woke people, but never gives examples of Trumps postmodern thought or practices.
Trump moved past Truth to his truth. He wasn’t the first postmodern President, though. Clinton likely was.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 3:07 pm to AaronDeTiger
quote:
I like James, but he calls Trump the first Postmodern president. He tries to lump Trump in with all the Woke people, but never gives examples of Trumps postmodern thought or practices. The only examples he ever has (and correctly) are the Marxist revolutionaries. He always talks about changing your mind based on evidence, well give me the evidence Trump is postmodern/critial Theorist.
I've heard him say it, and while he doesn't go into a lot of detail I think it's a reasonable point.
I think it first came up in the idea of a post-truth culture, and he claims Trump participates in that. I find that hard to dispute, although I'd be cautious in saying Trump lies about things on the same substantive level.
But in the context of gaslighting and making people feel they're crazy, Trump participates in that I think. Again, I think it's on a much shallower level, concerned largely with Trump's own vanity, but it's nonetheless there. And honestly, it's probably why he's somewhat effective in battling postmodernist elements, because in some ways he's one of them.
I don't think James would say Trump is a CTer, or that he's part of the woke problem. I think he'd say Trump contributes to a culture/environment (what we're calling the PoMo age) that has facilitated the rise of CT and woke-ism as a religion.
But you can ask him and he'll probably respond, I've swapped emails with him in the past.
Posted on 6/29/20 at 6:40 pm to Pettifogger
I think Trump just uses their game against them, whether he knows it or not.
Posted on 6/30/20 at 8:54 am to AaronDeTiger
So I listened to a podcast this morning w/ James, and he claims that right wing populism (Trumpism) is a critical movement.
His basis for that is the focus on dismantling governmental institutions (administrative state), the disdain for governmental experts and Trump's meme-ing and looseness with the truth, and some other stuff I can't recall. He doesn't call it as organized or illiberal as critical theory/social justice, but he certainly claims it to be a critical movement of sorts.
My take is that while he's on to something regarding Trump and his interaction with the modern left, I don't see how what's happening on the right rises to a level of true postmodernism or is akin to critical theory below the surface.
There is a tendency to immediately question experts, but I don't think the questioning is a product of not believing in the concept of expertise, or doubting that genuine expertise is superior to other levels of knowledge. I think it's a questioning of motive, and JL seems to acknowledge that somewhat by noting that private sector experts aren't considered as suspect.
The same is true for truth. Obviously I can't speak for Trump, but I don't think most of these people are relativists. I think they are skeptics, who believe truth exists and is discoverable, but is being obscured by people for political/power purposes.
JL equates "do your own research" to "lived experience" which I think is a mistake. I'm not plugged into the Trump subculture, but I think he's referencing a particular phrase of skepticism rather than a generic "do your own research" which in a vacuum I assume is an objectively good idea. But that aside, I don't think the conspiracy types believe in alternate truths or "my truth", they're again skeptics of official narratives and prone to believe probably-untrue things because they WANT to be shown correct about their suspicions. To me that's very different than lived experience being an alternative to science.
So anyway, I think it's really interesting to hear him talk about Trump and compare it to CT, but I think he's wrong in treating right wing skepticism as some counterpart to social justice/CT.
His basis for that is the focus on dismantling governmental institutions (administrative state), the disdain for governmental experts and Trump's meme-ing and looseness with the truth, and some other stuff I can't recall. He doesn't call it as organized or illiberal as critical theory/social justice, but he certainly claims it to be a critical movement of sorts.
My take is that while he's on to something regarding Trump and his interaction with the modern left, I don't see how what's happening on the right rises to a level of true postmodernism or is akin to critical theory below the surface.
There is a tendency to immediately question experts, but I don't think the questioning is a product of not believing in the concept of expertise, or doubting that genuine expertise is superior to other levels of knowledge. I think it's a questioning of motive, and JL seems to acknowledge that somewhat by noting that private sector experts aren't considered as suspect.
The same is true for truth. Obviously I can't speak for Trump, but I don't think most of these people are relativists. I think they are skeptics, who believe truth exists and is discoverable, but is being obscured by people for political/power purposes.
JL equates "do your own research" to "lived experience" which I think is a mistake. I'm not plugged into the Trump subculture, but I think he's referencing a particular phrase of skepticism rather than a generic "do your own research" which in a vacuum I assume is an objectively good idea. But that aside, I don't think the conspiracy types believe in alternate truths or "my truth", they're again skeptics of official narratives and prone to believe probably-untrue things because they WANT to be shown correct about their suspicions. To me that's very different than lived experience being an alternative to science.
So anyway, I think it's really interesting to hear him talk about Trump and compare it to CT, but I think he's wrong in treating right wing skepticism as some counterpart to social justice/CT.
Posted on 6/30/20 at 9:21 am to Pettifogger
quote:
So anyway, I think it's really interesting to hear him talk about Trump and compare it to CT, but I think he's wrong in treating right wing skepticism as some counterpart to social justice/CT.
I agree with that.
I do think he was right about the postmodernism of the Trump campaign, especially on the Republican primary side. Trump didn’t emerge victorious because he had the best plans or the strongest objective truth. He won because he controlled the narrative from start to finish.
Part of that is just politics. But his followers willingness to follow the narrative rather than the truth was an inescapable part of the Republican primary.
Posted on 6/30/20 at 9:23 am to Pettifogger
quote:
And honestly, it's probably why he's somewhat effective in battling postmodernist elements, because in some ways he's one of them.
I agree with this completely.
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