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Started By
Message
re: Supporters of Obamacare: Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 8:05 am to DCRebel
Posted on 1/11/14 at 8:05 am to DCRebel
quote:Fewer market forces? There could hardly be fewer market forces then are present in our system. What do you mean?
That still doesn't explain how, in countries with systems that would be explained by fewer market forces, they still pay less.
quote:Exposure to the most expensive, most inefficient tort system in the history of the planet.
Which is?
2
Posted on 1/11/14 at 8:33 am to NC_Tigah
Yeah I think Medicare Medicaid is like 40% of the market - not very efficient
Posted on 1/11/14 at 8:57 am to DCRebel
quote:You're confusing cost and price.
That still doesn't explain how, in countries with systems that would be explained by fewer market forces, they still pay less.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 9:00 am to Roaad
quote:
Are there no free market solutions to Healthcare?
There might be. It's just that the pre-Obamacare model was in no way "Free market".
Posted on 1/11/14 at 9:02 am to NC_Tigah
Serious question: upon what authority would Congress pass a law re tort reform?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 9:07 am to NC_Tigah
quote:there are but when the physician recommends surgery and the insurance company denies it, that's an example of "death panels" in action, which of course exist in private insurance, in this case death wasn't an issue but suits telling doctors how to treat by definition is a "death panel" in that they ultimately decide treatment and not the physician.
Without details it is impossible to address your sister's situation specifically, but there are many, many instances where the recommended treatment for Vertebral Fracture is nonsurgical. That may have been a source of confusion. Just so you'll know.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 9:30 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
That still doesn't explain how, in countries with systems that would be explained by fewer market forces, they still pay less.
Fewer market forces? There could hardly be fewer market forces then are present in our system. What do you mean?
What I mean is that this whole thread is based on some sort of idea that there are free market solutions to healthcare. I'm saying that, as far as I can tell, there aren't, and I'm using the example of healthcare expenditures per capita as my basis.
Every country that has a single-payer system (socialized medicine, universal coverage, evil Satanic Marxism - whatever you wanna call it) spend less money per capita on healthcare than the United States, and many have higher health outcomes. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the fact remains that searching for a "free market solution" might not be the way out.
quote:
Exposure to the most expensive, most inefficient tort system in the history of the planet.
I too am pro tort reform. I don't think the ideas of tort reform and healthcare reform are mutually exclusive.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 9:31 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
You're confusing cost and price.
How so?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 10:24 am to DCRebel
quote:That is an incredibly poor basis. In the US there is a massive disparity in what people pay for healthcare. Those that pay--pay A LOT. But there are wide swaths that pay NOTHING, and an even larger sector that pay well below cost. Taking the average... distorts the real picture.
I'm saying that, as far as I can tell, there aren't, and I'm using the example of healthcare expenditures per capita as my basis.
quote:I thought this myth was largely eviscerated on here. Perhaps you missed the multiple earlier threads on how statistics are distorted?
many have higher health outcomes.
This post was edited on 1/11/14 at 10:28 am
Posted on 1/11/14 at 10:27 am to DCRebel
quote:The direct cost of providing care (labor, equipment, expendibles) is not significantly higher here. The price is much higher. But as noted, so few actually pay the price... looking at pricing... is in no way indicative of what people actually pay.
How so?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 2:59 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:still waiting for this answer.
Serious question: upon what authority would Congress pass a law re tort reform?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 6:36 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Of course they would, because insurance companies wouldn't actually be paying any claims. Its really profitable to run an insurance company when all the money comes in and none rolls out.
So, if no health insurance companies were actually paying legitimate claims, why would people buy from those insurers?
Posted on 1/11/14 at 6:38 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
still waiting for this answer.
I'm sure they could just reference the commerce clause and be done with it.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 7:04 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:quote:still waiting for this answer.
Serious question: upon what authority would Congress pass a law re tort reform?
Not sure if serious.
Unreasonable tort and expense arising from it is an impediment to commerce. Mechanism of action in the healthcare arena could take many forms. One might be financial incentive for states enacting a no-fault, worker's-comp type plaintiff reimbursement tort option, and disincentives for those which did not.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 7:05 pm to Roaad
quote:
Is greater government control the only answer here?
no but it's the only real solution being talked about. I'd like to see a republican step up with a real plan to get more people access to the healthcare system. There are definitely a few things they could propose that would change things for the better.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 8:27 pm to NC_Tigah
As someone from the healthcare industry NC tigah is indeed very knowledgeable
If some one truly wanted to see the reasons for inefficiency and cost factors, visit an ER at any hospital near you. Spend several hours there in ER and listen to conversations, then return at different intervals. What you will find is that you get to see the same individuals repeatedly. They are there for reasons that most here would not see a physician for, much less go to an EMERGENCY room. Once there physicians now order every test they can possibly perform to make sure that they have covered all bases and Cover their rear ends. Headaches in a 14 yo with no trauma still requires a CAT scan. Sometimes they are just admitted to the hospital because if you send them home, they will just come back in a few hours with the same complaint that has worsened or a new interesting dilemma.
Multiply this times every ER in the country and it is a problem. The same scenarios play out for testing from a physicians office.
How about individuals that run up $500,000 ambulance bills that they never pay a dime or care about.
You may not understand how many times that you have to ride in an ambulance to get that high. It's a lot
If you ran a business and over the course of say fifteen years, you took $500,000 off the top because you provided services and never received any compensation, how long would you remain in business. This again just one example. I could give many more.
If some one truly wanted to see the reasons for inefficiency and cost factors, visit an ER at any hospital near you. Spend several hours there in ER and listen to conversations, then return at different intervals. What you will find is that you get to see the same individuals repeatedly. They are there for reasons that most here would not see a physician for, much less go to an EMERGENCY room. Once there physicians now order every test they can possibly perform to make sure that they have covered all bases and Cover their rear ends. Headaches in a 14 yo with no trauma still requires a CAT scan. Sometimes they are just admitted to the hospital because if you send them home, they will just come back in a few hours with the same complaint that has worsened or a new interesting dilemma.
Multiply this times every ER in the country and it is a problem. The same scenarios play out for testing from a physicians office.
How about individuals that run up $500,000 ambulance bills that they never pay a dime or care about.
You may not understand how many times that you have to ride in an ambulance to get that high. It's a lot
If you ran a business and over the course of say fifteen years, you took $500,000 off the top because you provided services and never received any compensation, how long would you remain in business. This again just one example. I could give many more.
Posted on 1/12/14 at 1:34 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Not sure if serious.
Very serious and I've yet to get an answer.
quote:so you think going to your local doctor and suing him affects interstate commerce? Seriously?
Unreasonable tort and expense arising from it is an impediment to commerce. Mechanism of action in the healthcare arena could take many forms. One might be financial incentive for states enacting a no-fault, worker's-comp type plaintiff reimbursement tort option, and disincentives for those which did not.
Just how does a malpractice suit impede interstate commerce?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 6:18 am to Vegas Bengal
Ehhh malpractice insurance?
Posted on 1/12/14 at 6:56 am to Vegas Bengal
quote:Any "serious drag on our nation's economy" effects interstate commerce.
Economists have long understood that America's tort system acts as a serious drag on our nation's economy. Although many excellent studies have been conducted, no single work has fully captured the true total costs, both static and dynamic, of excessive litigation.
The good news: We now have some reliable figures. The bad news: The costs are far higher than anyone imagined.
Based on our estimates, and applying the best available scholarly research, we believe America's tort system imposes a total cost on the U.S. economy of $865 billion per year. This constitutes an annual "tort tax" of $9,827 on a family of four. It is equivalent to the total annual output of all six New England states, or the yearly sales of the entire U.S. restaurant industry.
How does the legal system extract such an astounding amount from our economy? We applied the rent-seeking theory of transfers from economic science to pick up where past studies -- including the highly regarded Tillinghast-Towers Perrin study -- leave off. We began by examining the static costs of litigation -- including annual damage awards, plaintiff attorneys' fees, defense costs, administrative costs and deadweight costs from torts such as product liability cases, medical malpractice litigation and class action lawsuits.
LINK
Posted on 1/12/14 at 7:31 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
LAny "serious drag on our nation's economy" effects interstate commerce.
F
That's your grade. F
Using that logic there is no limitation on Congress as long as the subject is a serious drag on our economy. Using that logic Obamacare is constitutional because healthcare cost is a serious drag on our economy. frick Roberts' one vote "majority" that it's a tax. No need. Just say it's "a serious drag on our economy".
You've just poo pooed every conservative's argument against the constitutionality of Obamacare. Thanks for proving how important "original intent" is to a conservative. Zip.
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