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Started By
Message
re: Stop posting the pneumonia drop graph
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you're king of making a strawman here what "doesn't matter"? i'm not downplaying COVID making 2020 more deadly than a non-COVID year. this is about establishing what is/isn't COVID if you don't make this distinction you're going to widely enlarge the total number of COVID deaths
That's another weird argument: that it shouldn't count as a Covid death if they died from pneumonia. It's one of the ways that the virus is deadly. Those people died because they got Covid, and that caused them to get pneumonia.
It is waaaaay more pneumonia deaths than usual. It is clearly the case that that's because of Covid.
You're acting like pneumonia deaths should be ignored, because Covid didn't kill them, pneumonia did. There is no guarantee whatsoever that those people were destined to die from pneumonia, anyway.
So what's the limit for you? When we pass a usual year's worth of pneumonia deaths? When we pass two years'? Covid is causing them, it's valid to count them at Covid deaths. I don't understand how this is debatable.
2
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:17 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Pneumonia sure is running rampant these days!
yep, sucks it's being misdiagnosed as COvid but we're through the worst of it seasonally speaking
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:20 pm to TejasHorn
quote:
People like to pull random data and charts to fit their story. Same with global warming and our resident climatologists over on the poli board.
Terrible analogy. The overwhelming majority of scientific reports are in support of global warming, and it is the opposite position that requires cherry picking random data.
By saying that, I'm not even taking a position on global warming. You can argue that it's not caused by humans, or that scientists are paid off by the government to come up with results that support it, or that it's a huge cabal conspiracy where only the bravest of scientists dare to speak out. But it is nonsense to say you have to cherry pick random data to support it, lol.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:21 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
yep, sucks it's being misdiagnosed as COvid but we're through the worst of it seasonally speaking
Okay, so what's causing this huge pneumonia spike then? Guess it's just a coincidence?
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:21 pm to Microtiger
quote:
That's another weird argument: that it shouldn't count as a Covid death if they died from pneumonia. It's one of the ways that the virus is deadly. Those people died because they got Covid, and that caused them to get pneumonia.
He didn’t make that argument. You skipped right past your own bias into a different argument.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:24 pm to roadGator
quote:I will never give up on trying to educate people.
Ask yourself this, is anyone that doesn’t understand the graph going to take the time to understand it? If so, you should not give up.
quote:People not understanding simple data is just a small part of a much larger problem. This misunderstanding is being used to create anger among people. It's manipulative, and it works.
People not understanding a graph doesn’t scare me.
quote:This is a prime example of what I mean. More people have died of covid in the US in just 1 month than will die in car accidents for the entire year. Your fear is not aligned with the magnitude of the actual risks.
Idiots driving cars scare me.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:26 pm to ManBearTiger
quote:
yep, sucks it's being misdiagnosed as COvid
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:26 pm to Microtiger
quote:
This is such a weird argument. That Covid has killed in a month or so the same amount that we'd expect from pneumonia in a year anyway, so it doesn't matter.
it does matter
knowing how deadly COVID alone is, matters. a great deal
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:29 pm to Microtiger
quote:
That's another weird argument: that it shouldn't count as a Covid death if they died from pneumonia.
i'm talking about the overall data, not individual cases
quote:
It's one of the ways that the virus is deadly. Those people died because they got Covid, and that caused them to get pneumonia.
yes but if that's true, then a bunch of people who should have died from pneumonia...didn't? you can't have it both ways
we have to rely on the historical data on pneumonia to establish an estimated baseline of those deaths. those are your expected pneumonia deaths. with that baseline, the increase in pneumonia deaths will be linked to COVID
quote:
It is waaaaay more pneumonia deaths than usual. It is clearly the case that that's because of Covid.
nobody is arguing this. the "waaaaay more" are the only ones that should be attributed to Covid
quote:
You're acting like pneumonia deaths should be ignored
no they should just be grouped as (1) their historical expected data and (2) the excess from Covid
quote:
So what's the limit for you? When we pass a usual year's worth of pneumonia deaths? When we pass two years'?
what does this even mean, given the context of my post?
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:29 pm to Korkstand
I’m not afraid of covid. Sorry.
I believe IPAs are the vaccine or cure. I’m good.
I believe IPAs are the vaccine or cure. I’m good.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:31 pm to oogabooga68
quote:
Do you think all the "experts" involved in this "Pandemic" have been completely truthful at all times?
I think most believed what they were saying. It's just they were so very, very, wrong. This does not apply to Fauci who I believe deliberately mislead the President/country in order wreck the economy and Trump's reelection chances.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:31 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
it does matter
knowing how deadly COVID alone is, matters. a great deal
I think you are misunderstanding the point of these charts. There is a certain group of people that is trying to use incomplete data as sort of proof that plain pneumonia deaths are being "borrowed" in order to pad the covid deaths. They point out this "drop" and say "where are all the pneumonia deaths?!" The truth is that pneumonia deaths are way UP.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:33 pm to Korkstand
quote:
I think you are misunderstanding the point of these charts. There is a certain group of people that is trying to use incomplete data as sort of proof that plain pneumonia deaths are being "borrowed" in order to pad the covid deaths.
no i get that. i perpetuated that lie. i was wrong
i'm talking about the OTHER, updated graph.
quote:
The truth is that pneumonia deaths are way UP.
i understand that, which is why i asked if it was an and/or chart (in a post previous to the one you quoted)
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:37 pm to roadGator
quote:I didn't say you should be afraid of it. My point was more that being afraid of idiot drivers makes less sense than if you were afraid of covid.
I’m not afraid of covid. Sorry.
In other words, your fear is not rational. Your fear is not based on a reasonable view of the risk.
And that's fine. What not fine IMO is that many people are spreading misinformation that distorts the actual risk of covid. Just be honest about it, and we can go from there.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:38 pm to SlowFlowPro
I definitely don't think that 100% of current pneumonia deaths should be attributed to Covid-19, no. I think we are miscommuncating here, and I think it's my fault.
If we could subtract the expected pneumonia deaths from the actual, we could come up with how many are actually from Covid. I agree with that. Some of the pneumonia deaths were actually because of pneumonia, and even though they tested positive for Covid, it wasn't a bad case and it was fully a pneumonia death. I agree with that.
I interpreted (incorrectly, obviously) that you were arguing that the people who died of Covid-induced pneumonia right now would have died of pneumonia anyway, as in, they are old and statistically likely to have caught pneumonia later this year or next year and died anyway. I think now what you actually meant is they would have died from pneumonia anyway RIGHT NOW in a hypothetical situation where Covid never arrived here. If that's the case, I 100% agree with you.
I think you're arguing that counting every pneumonia death with Covid as a Covid death is an overinflation of Covid deaths. I 100% agree with you.
In that context my other posts should make sense, even though they were misguided. I apologize for misunderstanding you.
If we could subtract the expected pneumonia deaths from the actual, we could come up with how many are actually from Covid. I agree with that. Some of the pneumonia deaths were actually because of pneumonia, and even though they tested positive for Covid, it wasn't a bad case and it was fully a pneumonia death. I agree with that.
I interpreted (incorrectly, obviously) that you were arguing that the people who died of Covid-induced pneumonia right now would have died of pneumonia anyway, as in, they are old and statistically likely to have caught pneumonia later this year or next year and died anyway. I think now what you actually meant is they would have died from pneumonia anyway RIGHT NOW in a hypothetical situation where Covid never arrived here. If that's the case, I 100% agree with you.
I think you're arguing that counting every pneumonia death with Covid as a Covid death is an overinflation of Covid deaths. I 100% agree with you.
In that context my other posts should make sense, even though they were misguided. I apologize for misunderstanding you.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:39 pm to Korkstand
I have no fear in reality though. I’m a trained driver.
Bring it.
Bring it.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:40 pm to the808bass
quote:
He didn’t make that argument. You skipped right past your own bias into a different argument.
It was due to a misunderstanding from his previous post, actually. I thought he was saying that Covid-induced pneumonia deaths would have caught pneumonia and died eventually anyway because they're old
What he's actually saying is that some pneumonia deaths were really primarily pneumonia deaths, even if they were Covid positive, and those people would have died without Covid. I agree with that and there's no disagreement here in reality.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:41 pm to Korkstand
quote:
What not fine IMO is that many people are spreading misinformation that distorts the actual risk of covid.
Welcome to America.
That’s what we’re best at. Spreading disinformation. “Human trafficking!” “Your kid could be kidnapped tomorrow!” “You could catch AIDS!” “Two million Americans will die from this if we don’t shut the whole country down!”
If those didn’t bother you, this one shouldn’t.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:42 pm to Microtiger
Damn. How did I miss this gem of a thread started by the secretary of the VDC?
Posted on 5/5/20 at 12:42 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:The one that I posted on page 1? That is based on the same exact data that the one in the OP is, except with updated data. That huge spike will continue to take shape over the coming weeks. The only thing we really know is that the data points shown are minimum values.
i'm talking about the OTHER, updated graph.
quote:It's a "left join" of the data. If it were a venn diagram of pneumonia, flu, and covid, the data in these charts would represent the full pneumonia circle and only the pneumonia circle. It does not include covid or flu deaths, unless they also mention pneumonia on the death cert.
i understand that, which is why i asked if it was an and/or chart
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