re: Still zero Christian terror attacks

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What do you think would happen if the US actually did become a Christian theocracy that is much different than it is now?

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Are you kidding me?

They would ban consumption of alcohol, weed, porn, etc. Probably even dancing.

Basically, a kinder, gentler version of Sharia.

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so did the crusaders. still a terrorist act

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The discussion is whether the attack is based on Christian beliefs. The fact that he is a Christian doesn't make it a "Christian terror attack" any more than being right handed makes it a "Right handed terror attack". You need some connection between Christianity and the motive for Roof's attack, not just the fact he was Christian. Or a gamer, or fan of Nickleback or someone who wears their hat backwards. As far as I know, Roof did not point to any bible teachings as his motivation for his crime any more than he pointed to his dominant hand being his motivation.

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Number of Troubles attacks from either side motivated by faith rather than politics/sectarianism:

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No, you are off base there. It’s the same thing. The better answer is that was the last gasp of Christian radicalism, which was way worse hundreds of years before when the Crusades were a thing.

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I'm not to the point of arguing for a Christian theocracy like some on here, but I'm a lot more amenable to that idea than I used to be. I'd like to ask you exactly why that idea is so scary to you. What do you think would happen if the US actually did become a Christian theocracy that is much different than it is now? Again, I'm not saying you're wrong about your opinion necessarily, I would just like to know your thoughts.

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Appreciate the respectful phrasing of your question. I actually had to give this more thought than I expected…

1. Negative impact on education. World is 7,000 years old, anti-evolution, ban books, devoting class time to bible study, etc. My in-laws want to take my kid to visit the Arc recreation being built in Tennessee as a “history” lesson.
2. Loss of personal freedoms. Alcohol, weed, porn, birth control, entertainment industry, gay marriage, etc.
3. Medical research/care. Stem cell research, end of life care, etc.

In Texas right now they are pushing for no fault divorce, making Delta 8/9 illegal (admittedly some complexity here), putting 10 commandments in classrooms, and women are dying because they can’t get appropriate care in dangerous pregnancies. Several women in my life including my wife have had miscarriages/dangerous pregnancies. IMO, many Christians don’t care if women die if it reduces abortions, necessary trade-off. I don’t know how you can look at the current situation in Texas and come to any other conclusion.

I would ask, respectfully, what do you think are the potential benefits of a Christian theocracy?

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Dylan Roof

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What church did he belong to?

Not directed to me, but I'd like to chime in, if that's OK.

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1. Negative impact on education. World is 7,000 years old, anti-evolution, ban books, devoting class time to bible study, etc. My in-laws want to take my kid to visit the Arc recreation being built in Tennessee as a “history” lesson.

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Aside from a few fields, teaching a 6,000 year old earth and anti-evolution teaching has zero bearing on "education". You can be an engineer without even knowing about evolutionary theory. What you are doing is combining observational science (Christians have no problem with this) with historical science (the theory of evolution, billions of years, etc.) The highest learning used to happen in Christian-founded universities that did not teach evolution. This also assumes that such concepts are factually true. I would personally say that teaching evolution is not "education" but teaching lies. Regardless, I don't think our country would be worse off if Christians who want to study God's creation moderated education.

You mention banning books, but in the same "breath", you want to ban the Bible (you mentioned Bible study as a bad thing). Hopefully you would agree that banning sexually explicit books for minors in public education isn't necessarily a bad thing, and not all books should be promoted within schools, so I don't see "banning books" as a bad thing necessarily; it would depend on the book and the reason for the ban.

I also don't see why devoting time to Bible study would be bad. Children today are taught morality from a secular humanistic perspective and I don't think they're better off for it.

Lastly, I don't see a problem with the Ark Encounter being viewed as a history lesson. You assume it isn't history, but even if it isn't, it can be educational. And even if you think it's a waste of time, there are so many things done in schools today that are complete wastes of time and not contributing any benefit to children in terms of education. I think that is hardly something to get bent out of shape over.

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2. Loss of personal freedoms. Alcohol, weed, porn, birth control, entertainment industry, gay marriage, etc

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You don't see the problems in society due to unregulated access to these things? Absolute freedom is anarchy and ultimately, slavery. Everyone agrees that there are necessary limits we need in society but we don't all agree on what limits should exist. Apparently unfettered access to pornography is better in your mind, even if it leads to all sorts of sexual perversion and broken relationships.

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3. Medical research/care. Stem cell research, end of life care, etc.

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While there would be some limits to research, we already have certain ones in place, like limits on human-based testing. We look at the experiments that the Nazi's performed and shudder, so clearly you are OK with certain limits but not others. Christians have founded hospitals for centuries, so health care and even medical research would not be hindered generally by Christians, so you're just talking about certain particulars that you disagree with even though medical research and care, generally, could continue under Christian government.

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In Texas right now they are pushing for no fault divorce

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That's a shame. No-fault divorce has not been good for families. There are biblical reasons for divorce, but no-fault divorce destroy families. You can't possibly think that that's a good thing.

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making Delta 8/9 illegal (admittedly some complexity here),

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While currently unpopular, making THC illegal for consumption wouldn't be the end of the world, and there are currently ways it is used that doesn't result in the "high" that many Christians are opposed to.

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putting 10 commandments in classrooms

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What's wrong with this, and what harm does this do? Is this worse than teaching children about how to pleasure themselves with sex toys or encouraging transgenderism or other LGBTQ ideology that is rampant in our schools today?

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and women are dying because they can’t get appropriate care in dangerous pregnancies. Several women in my life including my wife have had miscarriages/dangerous pregnancies. IMO, many Christians don’t care if women die if it reduces abortions, necessary trade-off. I don’t know how you can look at the current situation in Texas and come to any other conclusion.

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I'm as "extreme" as they come on the abortion issue, not being OK with exceptions for rape and incest, however even I recognize that a medical procedure to remove a child from the mother's body in order to save the life of the mother is not an "abortion" as our society views it today (the intentional killing of the child). The issue of abortion is not about health care but about killing children. You seem to be fine with millions of children being murdered for the sake of the health of some women.

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I would ask, respectfully, what do you think are the potential benefits of a Christian theocracy?

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1. Honoring our creator and avoiding judgement from God
2. Having an objective moral standard rather than the arbitrary standards provided by the whims of secular humanists
3. Disincentivizing crime through punishment/justice rather than attempting rehabilitation
4. Upholding human value and dignity for humans of all stages of life rather than sliding head first down the slope of eugenics, euthanasia, or outright murder for societal undesirables
5. Encouragement of social virtue of honesty, integrity, care for neighbor, and care for self
6. Encouragement to an improved work ethic in all fields of study
7. True accountability for rulers and leaders
8. Encouragement towards procreation and support for the family unit
9. Support for scientific pursuit for the glory of God and benefit of fellow image-bearers
10. Focus on people-centric healthcare
11. Rejection of ungodly worldviews such as Marxism and Critical Theory, especially in societal institutions

I could go on (a Christian worldview can be applied to all political and social issues), and the benefits to society would almost be immeasurable, however we currently operate under secular humanism and are getting worse and worse by the day. Christians can just as easily point out the problems with the government and culture we have today.

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You mention banning books, but in the same "breath", you want to ban the Bible (you mentioned Bible study as a bad thing). Hopefully you would agree that banning sexually explicit books for minors in public education isn't necessarily a bad thing, and not all books should be promoted within schools, so I don't see "banning books" as a bad thing necessarily; it would depend on the book and the reason for the ban.

I also don't see why devoting time to Bible study would be bad. Children today are taught morality from a secular humanistic perspective and I don't think they're better off for it.

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He said nothing about banning the Bible. He said he doesn't want forced readings of the Bible. Bible study is the domain of the church and parents, not schools.

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You don't see the problems in society due to unregulated access to these things? Absolute freedom is anarchy and ultimately, slavery. Everyone agrees that there are necessary limits we need in society but we don't all agree on what limits should exist. Apparently unfettered access to pornography is better in your mind, even if it leads to all sorts of sexual perversion and broken relationships.

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It is not the role of government to police peoples' relationships, as long as violence is not involved.

Personal freedom would become a thing of the past under Christian theocracy.

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going to Barnes and noble later to buy all the Qurans they have and then burn them

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This is a great idea…I wonder what would happen if there was an organized effort on a particular day to buy up all the Qurans and burn them all on hundreds of livestreams…how would the Muslim leaders deal with it? I think it would be interesting to see their reactions…peaceful or violent?

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Some of the most important fields to society, and this is just name a few.

1. Medicine- epidemiology, genetics/genomics,pharmacology, immunology, neuroscience, biomedical research
2. Ecology, conservation biology, wildlife biologists
3. Archaeology
3. Paleontology
4. Astronomy, Space Exploration, astrophysics, astrogeology
5. Anthropology

If you’re not getting a quality scientific education, you are going to be hampered in these fields and many more.

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If what is important is scientific discovery, then regulating teaching within historical science isn't as impactful as you think. Christians who reject old ages and evolution can be just as effective in those fields mentioned.

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Teaching creationism undermines scientific literacy. It’s not based on the scientific method, it’s based on religious faith. You are asking young minds to compartmentalize this type of thinking from other areas of their development.

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Ironically, I would say the same thing about evolution

Creationism does not undermine scientific literacy whatsoever. As I said already, what you're doing is combining observational science and historical science together as if creationism undermines both of those things. The scientific method has little to do with historical science because historical science deals with those things which are in the past. The scientific method is about testing to confirm theories and you can't even test the theory of evolution because changes happen so gradually that you can't actually observe them.

I think what you're really concerned about is the lack of teaching of evolution rather than the lack of teaching of science. Those things are not identical.

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Why would you go to the Arc when you can go to the Smithsonian? What’s your opinion on the Smithsonian? What should we teach about dinosaurs?

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The Ark Encounter better explains the truth of our history, IMO. The Smithsonian is good for displaying real fossils and such but not great at its interpretation of those fossils.

I don't want this to be a debate about creationism, but my main point here is there creationism does not necessitate an abandonment of science. On the contrary, Christians should pursue science because it explains the natural world that God created, for His glory.

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Edit: I wouldn’t begrudge anyone’s personal faith. I think it can be a beautiful and powerful thing for many people. However, I don’t think it should be forced on others via public education or other government entities.

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"Forced"? What about secularism that is "forced" on the religious?

In a world with contrary beliefs and ideas, proclaiming something as truth will offend those who don't agree. It's unavoidable. I believe the Bible is true and our society would greatly benefit from a Christian-centric worldview being proclaimed and a government run by Christian principles. That doesn't require everyone in the country to be Christian so it would not require forced conversions (which I'm against, BTW). We're merely talking about a thought exercise regarding the benefits of a Christian government.