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Message
re: Starved to Death in an American Jail, the Man Who Couldn't Pay $100 Bail
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:52 pm to 4cubbies
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:52 pm to 4cubbies
The internet is full of articles making this statement.
You claim to be well read and research your topics.
Why do you gloss over the fact he wasn’t starved but starved himself?
quote:
According to the prosecutor's review, jailers gave Price food, but they said he would often not eat it. They reported seeing Price eat his Styrofoam tray at times and said he would often throw feces and urine at them.
You claim to be well read and research your topics.
Why do you gloss over the fact he wasn’t starved but starved himself?
1
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:54 pm to Rebel
quote:
You claim to be well read and research your topics.
Are you claiming he was not psychotic? The facility admits that he was not taking his medication or receiving care.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:01 pm to 4cubbies
I’m claiming the first sentence of the Newsweek article which you used as the subject of your thread is an intentional lie.
It’s written like that to evoke an emotional response by the reader.
Of course he was psychotic. He sat in his cell flinging poo like a silverback at the zoo. It’s a sad situation. But crazy people do crazy things.
It’s written like that to evoke an emotional response by the reader.
Of course he was psychotic. He sat in his cell flinging poo like a silverback at the zoo. It’s a sad situation. But crazy people do crazy things.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:02 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
I’d love to see the data.
Many more where this came from
quote:
District Attorney Jeff Reisig stated: “When over 70% of the people released under mandated $0 bail policies go on to commit additional crime(s), including violent offenses such as robbery and murder, there is simply no rational public safety-related basis to continue such a practice post-pandemic, especially in light of the increasing violent crime rates across California.” The full-report may be viewed here: LINK ###
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:10 am to 4cubbies
quote:
It also means the majority of people are appearing for court.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean that at all. We don't have enough information to conclude that.
If 80% of the people scheduled for court currently miss their appearances and that number improves by 21% because people are getting reminders like they are teenagers being reminded to take out the trash instead of adults facing jail time for having committed crimes, that means that 59% of people are still missing court appearances even after the improvement.
If the starting number is 70% and it improves by 21%, now we're (barely) at a majority of people showing up.
The point is that without that starting number (and unless I missed it, no one has given that data) there's not enough information to know whether your statement is true or not.
However, even if it's true, so what?
I'm supposed to be impressed by a simple majority of people showing up to face their trials?
The percentage of people not showing up to court when they are supposed to should be in the low single digits and should involve a verifiable trip to the hospital or a stranding on the side of the road. or some other verifiable unavoidable emergency.
So what's the plan to ensure that outcome?
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:16 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Straw man fallacy.
No, it isn't.
A straw man is when you construct a distorted caricature of your opponent's argument and then knock it down.
That was not a distortion of the original argument, it was a comparison designed to make the point that these people don't show up because they aren't motivated to show up.
Now, you could argue by saying, "You don't know whether they would remember/find transportation/get someone to cover their shift or watch their kids for a free t.v. giveaway or not."
In other words, you could attack the claim, but it's not a strawman.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:23 am to 4cubbies
quote:
First, the purpose of bail is not to prevent “abscond or flee”. Instead it’s to ensure appearance
quote:
Straw man.
Again, this is not a straw man. He's making the same point I made (that you acknowledged was a good point) that it doesn't matter why people aren't at their court appearances.
A straw man would be taking your argument and twisting it into something it's not.
For example, someone might say, "So you think that the court system is based on white privilege, so minorities shouldn't have to follow the rules. Well, that's racist and silly."
You haven't said anything (to my knowledge) about the court system being based on white privilege or people not having to follow court rules...I made that up in that hypothetical. I distorted your argument. Then I called an obviously silly argument (that you did not actually make, but that I ascribed to you) silly.
THAT'S a strawman argument. That's not what he did.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:29 am to Rebel
quote:
Of course he was psychotic. He sat in his cell flinging poo like a silverback at the zoo. It’s a sad situation. But crazy people do crazy things.
I generally do not agree with the OP, but I agree in this case that it's not o.k. to stand by and watch/let a mentally ill prisoner kill himself in jail. Whether the headline of the thread is accurate or not.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:42 am to 4cubbies
quote:
There’s no clear pattern to determine whether or not bail reform leads to increased crime generally speaking.
You a black female admin at Harvard?
Citation needed.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:13 am to Rebel
quote:
I’m claiming the first sentence of the Newsweek article which you used as the subject of your thread is an intentional lie.
But he did starve to death.
He starved to death.
I can understand if you want to argue that the wording could be misleading but it’s factual.
quote:
He sat in his cell flinging poo
This is a common occurrence in jails across the country.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:20 am to lsufan1971
quote:
Many more where this came from
If you're searching for single examples to confirm your assumption, you will find them. I'm looking for meta-analyses that aggregate the data. That's what the study I posted did. I can also find a bunch of examples of singular jurisdictions where bail reform did not cause an increase in crime.
quote:
New Jersey’s bail reforms were championed by Republican Governor Chris Christie and passed the State Legislature with significant bipartisan support after a 2014 ballot initiative compelled the state to act. Governor Christie signed a law in 2017 eliminating the cash bail system in favor of a system that calculates the risk of recidivism. Instead of the default being cash bail, judges consider risk to community safety and individual victims when making pretrial decisions. If you are a risk to the community, you stay in jail.
LINK
This post was edited on 2/28/24 at 11:21 am
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:33 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
No, it doesn't necessarily mean that at all. We don't have enough information to conclude that.
The study said about 40% of people didn't show up for court. That means that 60% did appear in court.
quote:
Researchers conducted field studies in New York City to determine how jurisdictions can effectively reduce failures to appear. They found that, in 2015, about 40 percent of people charged with low-level offenses, like disorderly conduct or trespassing in a park after hours, missed their court date. But a few simple fixes—like redesigning the city’s summons ticket to prominently display the court date and location at the top of the ticket (instead of at the bottom) and sending text message reminders ahead of court dates—reduced failures to appear by between 13 and 21 percent from 2016 to 2019. The researchers estimated that these interventions helped prevent nearly 30,000 arrest warrants for failure to appear from being issued.
quote:
I'm supposed to be impressed by a simple majority of people showing up to face their trials?
Frankly, I'm not interested in impressing you.
you asked "So what do those of you who advocate for bail reform suggest to ensure that people show up for their court appearances?"
I showed you an option that was working.
Another option is supervised release.
In 2020, after cash bail was replaced by a supervised release for violent felons, the court appearance rate was 86% which this report says is similar to the appearance rate for those out on bail. LINK
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:36 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
A straw man is when you construct a distorted caricature of your opponent's argument and then knock it down.
Right. I never claimed people miss court to attend free TV giveaways, or that more people appear in court than attend free TV giveaways The whole thing is ridiculous.
This post was edited on 2/28/24 at 11:37 am
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:40 am to roadGator
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:41 am to 4cubbies
Third way mission statement
Not exactly unbiased
Real data analytics don't have expected outcomes before the analysis takes place.
I have given you 2 examples of where bail reform has failed. There are many more. I'm not going to spend the time to link every article or study.
quote:
Third Way is a national think tank that champions modern center-left ideas.
quote:
Our competitive advantage lies in our high-impact advocacy campaigns that combine rigorous policy research with a unique and incisive understanding of the vast American middle—the people who ultimately decide majorities and provide mandates for change. We design our work to persuade elected officials, intellectuals, advocates, the media, and others with political influence.
Not exactly unbiased
Real data analytics don't have expected outcomes before the analysis takes place.
I have given you 2 examples of where bail reform has failed. There are many more. I'm not going to spend the time to link every article or study.
This post was edited on 2/28/24 at 11:45 am
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:41 am to 4cubbies
Perfect. Try not to plagiarize next time. Unless you are trying to get into Harvard where that stuff is acceptable if you are a black female
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:42 am to the808bass
quote:
quote:
What part of the story do you think you're missing?
That he was offered food three times a day.
That he was in solitary confinement for a reason.
That Covid measures complicated the entire story.
That’s a start. I could probably list 20 others.
Of course there is another side of the story. That said, he was under their custody and care. Allowing this to happen is inexcusable.
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:44 am to The Boat
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/28/24 at 11:52 am
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:45 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Frankly, I'm not interested in impressing you.
Hahaha....she gets snippy when someone makes her look like a fool....which is like, all the time....
Posted on 2/28/24 at 11:50 am to lsufan1971
quote:
Third way mission statement
quote:
Third Way is a national think tank that champions modern center-left ideas.
Shocking......
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