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re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:40 pm to LuckyTiger
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:40 pm to LuckyTiger
You have to think of breathing as a spectrum. CPAP/BIPAP is used with certain degrees of respiratory difficulties. The end of the spectrum for respiratory distress/ARDS though is intubation and mechanical ventilation. Last ditch efforts are placing people prone and sometimes the controversial changing of the ratio of time inspirating versus time expirating.
1
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:40 pm to SSpaniel
It’s a bit of a catchall that describes measures that can be taken when ventilators are not available but does not state that CPAP machines are or can be used as respirators.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:42 pm to jlc05
quote:
Thought I heard earlier in the week that some are being converted
they are, here in st.louis, one hospital is buying some kind of electronic device from a hobby shop, and turning cpaps into devices for those who have the corona. They were doing a promo on the hobby shop selling coloring books, trains,etc to people stuck at home.
This post was edited on 3/26/20 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:43 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:
It’s a bit of a catchall that describes measures that can be taken when ventilators are not available but does not state that CPAP machines are or can be used as respirators.
True.
I guess it seems to me to be a sort of logical question to someone not in the medical field. Vents help you breathe. CPAP machines help you breathe.
In totally different manners and degrees of course.
This post was edited on 3/26/20 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:43 pm to moneyg
quote:
So when you heard people asking about CPAP devices being used, you thought they meant as 100% perfect replacement for ventilators?
Yes, because that was the question.
All of the doctors then quickly proceeded to answer how such a scenario was not possible.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:43 pm to DavidStHubbins
Another thing to also consider is the recommendations against positive airway pressure via mask ventilation due to concern of aerosolizing particles. If you don’t have proper seal when masking someone, you risk aerosolizing a room which in the case of Covid has been shown to remain aerosolized up to 3 hours.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:44 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:
It’s a bit of a catchall that describes measures that can be taken when ventilators are not available but does not state that CPAP machines are or can be used as respirators.
It doesn't say a watermelon can't be used as a respirator either. Guess I need to run to the produce department tomorrow.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:45 pm to SeeeeK
The fricking vents are useless. In China 95% of the people died on the vent, so what is the life expectancy after a month? Probably close to zero.
Although there is no data from Italy, they stopped putting people over 60 on the vent, why? It doesn't fricking help.
LINK
Although there is no data from Italy, they stopped putting people over 60 on the vent, why? It doesn't fricking help.
LINK
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:47 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
GeauxFightingTigers1
If you go on a vent with a respiratory infection.......I hope you have your affairs in order.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:48 pm to greygoose
quote:
I'm a respiratory therapist. A vent can do CPAP, but a CPAP can not be a ventilator. Continuous Positive Airway Pressure(CPAP). A vent actually moves air, in AND out of your lungs. There is no CPAP machine that does that.
You will still find people that will argue with you.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:50 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:
The doctors didn’t think that was feasible. One is a tube down your wind pipe that pushes air and inflates your lungs and the other is a face mask that exerts mild airflow and doesn’t breathe for the person.
Well, this is why doctors aren't inventors and engineers.
The pressure can be increased from the bottle, via the first stage regulator to a control unit/second stage regulator and then you replace the mask with an oral pharyngeal airway ( every EMT has one in his bag), that inserts down the windpipe. Or, you could hook it all up to an air compressor. That's how air is put into bottles anyway.
The key, is in the way that you control the respirations. Hell a lot of lives have been saved with an ambubag, that the EMT squeezes by hand.
This post was edited on 3/26/20 at 7:55 pm
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:50 pm to greygoose
quote:
greygoose
RT here also. I knew I wasn't wording it right...I guess my point was some machines can do more than others, but most can't do what was suggested. Maybe a trilogy unit but there's not too many of those out there...still designed for a mask though.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:52 pm to LuckyTiger
quote:I had someone tell me today, that their 2 y/o got sick back in January. Hospitalized and had to be given supplemental oxygen. I asked if there were any underlying medical condition. She said "No"......Then said the kid was asthmatic.
You will still find people that will argue with you.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:56 pm to DMAN1968
quote:What you are referring to is, invasive vs. noninvasive ventilation.
RT here also. I knew I wasn't wording it right...I guess my point was some machines can do more than others, but most can't do what was suggested. Maybe a trilogy unit but there's not too many of those out there...still designed for a mask though.
I was watching Cuomo today and he was saying some Corona patients can be on a vent for 21 days. At that point, they are probably trached.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:56 pm to greygoose
Exactly.
I would rather they bleed the demon from me.
I would rather they bleed the demon from me.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:59 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
Exactly.
I would rather they bleed the demon from me.
I taken care of my fair share of brain dead, vent patients. I would never want to kept alive like that.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 7:59 pm to greygoose
So riddle me this, Batman, because I’ve watched a few episodes of Scrubs, if the CPAP or BIPAP can force air into the lungs, and then relax enough to let air out, why wouldn’t that provide enough oxygen to sustain life? Is it the supplemental O2 that makes the ventilator so effective? Because I believe CPAPs can be set up with O2 tanks as well.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 8:02 pm to GeauxFightingTigers1
quote:
The fricking vents are useless. In China 95% of the people died on the vent, so what is the life expectancy after a month? Probably close to zero.
Although there is no data from Italy, they stopped putting people over 60 on the vent, why? It doesn't fricking help.
Don't you just love seeing those pressure start creeping up, knowing ARDS is setting in? Families asking you how they are doing, knowing you can't say? Knowing what is coming down the pike.
Posted on 3/26/20 at 8:05 pm to RockChalkTiger
Contentious Positive Airway Pressure. Bi-PAP is a higher pressure on inhalation, lower on exhalation. Care to guess what happens if you don't exhale? I can give you 100% oxygen, but if you ain't moving air,.....
A vent pushes and pulls air. See the difference?
A vent pushes and pulls air. See the difference?
Posted on 3/26/20 at 8:05 pm to RockChalkTiger
quote:
So riddle me this, Batman, because I’ve watched a few episodes of Scrubs, if the CPAP or BIPAP can force air into the lungs, and then relax enough to let air out, why wouldn’t that provide enough oxygen to sustain life? Is it the supplemental O2 that makes the ventilator so effective? Because I believe CPAPs can be set up with O2 tanks as well.
It can all be done, it's all about plumbing it up, and controlling the process. It's a mechanical process.
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