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greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

It can all be done, it's all about plumbing it up, and controlling the procesIs. It's a mechanical process.



I'd love to see someone covert Paw Paw's CPAP into a functioning ventilator.



GeauxFightingTigers1
Member since Oct 2016
3508 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

Don't you just love seeing those pressure start creeping up, knowing ARDS is setting in? Families asking you how they are doing, knowing you can't say? Knowing what is coming down the pike.


Brutal.



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RockChalkTiger
USA Fan
Shelby County, AL
Member since May 2009
5642 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
Got it, but eventually the lungs fill up, and some gets forced back out, right? Even without the exhale? But it sounds like from the posts if I need a vent, I’m fricked anyway, so nevermind.


SSpaniel
Memphis Fan
Germantown
Member since Feb 2013
27384 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
I'll bet MacGyver or that Doctor that was on Royal Pains could quickly and easily make a vent out of a hairpin, a CPAP machine and some used chewing gum.
This post was edited on 3/26 at 8:10 pm


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greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
Wonder why the big manufacturers have done this already?


auggie
Auburn Fan
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
17322 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

A vent pushes and pulls air. See the difference?


That is simple to make work with an electronically actuated pressure sensitive, release valve.

This shite isn't even hard anymore. We have so much technology on the market, we can do almost anything we want.


greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

Got it, but eventually the lungs fill up, and some gets forced back out, right? Even without the exhale? But it sounds like from the posts if I need a vent, I’m fricked anyway, so nevermind.


You are missing out on a shit-ton of other things. I don't have the time to type out everything that goes along with managing a vent patient. Trust me, a lot of docs struggle with this. I had orders from a resident, that weren't kosher. Explained to him why he shouldn't do that. He went and got another resident and had me explain it to her. They ended up calling the attending at 2am, got yelled at, and told to listen to what I was saying.


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auggie
Auburn Fan
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
17322 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

Wonder why the big manufacturers have done this already?


Because they want to sell you something that costs more money. Ford can still build a car that cost 10,000 bucks, but they don't.


greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

Because they want to sell you something that costs more money. Ford can still build a car that cost 10,000 bucks, but they don't.



And runs on water, Mannnnnn!


auggie
Auburn Fan
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
17322 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

And runs on water, Mannnnnn!


Let me ask you a question: If your ventilator machine stopped pumping air, is there any chance that you could repair it? Would you have any clue what to try?


greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

Let me ask you a question: If your ventilator machine stopped pumping air, is there any chance that you could repair it? Would you have any clue what to try?



Youtube FTW?

RT's don't repair medical equipment, BAW. They treat patients. Bio-med takes care of that shite. Vent goes down, you bag til you get a backup vent bedside.


DMAN1968
Member since Apr 2019
2521 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

That is simple to make work with an electronically actuated pressure sensitive, release valve.

A bipap/cpap provides positive pressure to the airways during a patients inspiration/expiration and supplemental O2. It doesn't provide respiratory rates or volumes over a given amount of time and pressures.

Short answer...if a person is breathing 40-50 times a minute to get rid of CO2 or obtain more oxygen...eventually they tire and simply quit breathing. Without the patient actuating the breath no benefit is gained from Cpap/Bpap. I can use a vent and breath for a completely paralyzed person, not a cpap machine.


auggie
Auburn Fan
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
17322 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

RT's don't repair medical equipment, BAW. They treat patients. Bio-med takes care of that shite. Vent goes down, you bag til you get a backup vent bedside.


So, you don't know a damn thing about the internal workings of the machine, but you can tell somebody else, why they can't make something work?


DavidStHubbins
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Oct 2012
34 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
Except an oropharyngeal airway doesn’t go into the windpipe. If you insert something down the windpipe (trachea), it would be called an endoTRACHEAL tube. We call that intubating.

In regards to allowing the lungs to expirate, the alveoli (smallest unit of lung tissue involved with CO2 and O2 exchange) only have so much recoil. You’d have to give significant amounts of time to allow appropriate exhalation. This is why you can only bag-mask someone so fast (the EMTs you refer to). If you squeeze the bag too fast, you “stack breaths” as we call it. You can’t do that forever, even if you have an on/off setting for a CPAP that gives several seconds of expiration, you risk not delivering enough oxygen and removing enough CO2 quick enough, which is the whole point of mechanical ventilation via endotracheal tube.

Despite not technically being engineers, there are plenty of doctors who both invent and have been engineers in previous lives. There are also plenty of inventor physicians who were also not engineers at any point.


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GoT1de
Alabama Fan
Alabama
Member since Aug 2009
2990 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

A vent pushes and pulls air. See the difference?


Positive air pressure with no negative return would be hard on a pneumonia patient trying to expel co2 I imagine.

Mother in law had pneumonia from a car wreck that had fractured all of her left side ribs, they put her on a bipap. (Looked and sounded like an industrial c-pap)
It was enough help to keep her off the vent. until her blood gasses were better.

That whole ordeal made me see how horrible lung disease is.


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Trevaylin
LSU Fan
south texas
Member since Feb 2019
1327 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators



read a pretty good article on this topic yesterday. Cpap's usually operate with a discharge pressure up to 19 inches of water, ventilators operate up to twice that pressure.
cpap's mfg in the last 5-6 years can operate up to 40 inches, but need a firmware change to accommodate the requirement. Cpap msg's are working on the issue and will have a fix in a week.
the other half of the problem is the delivery system, instead of exhausting through a vent near the face, for nurses protection the vent needs to be collected to an exhaust purifying system which is pretty straightforward system.
reliability issues can be easily taken care of by redundant units and battery backup. starting with an existing system is a whole lot simpler than ford's thought to begin with a seat inflation air pump
the article described the respirator market as fairly small, meaning that if the us ramps up production to meet the corona need, the suppliers will not need to produce any for the next 5 years. the market disappears. cpap is a much larger market and is likely to be the front end suppliers of vent machines


DMAN1968
Member since Apr 2019
2521 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

If your ventilator machine stopped pumping air, is there any chance that you could repair it? Would you have any clue what to try?

Aside from a problem in the ventilator circuit(external) or one of the filters the answer is no. There are as many circuit boards in it as the computer on most modern cars/trucks. Can you repair that?


auggie
Auburn Fan
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
17322 posts
 Online 

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

A bipap/cpap provides positive pressure to the airways during a patients inspiration/expiration and supplemental O2. It doesn't provide respiratory rates or volumes over a given amount of time and pressures.


When they talk about retro fitting machines, they are basically adding the controls required to perform those functions.


DavidStHubbins
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Oct 2012
34 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
I mean if you want to invent this CPAP converted machine, what’s stopping you?

You’re very focused on the machine, but you’re forgetting the bigger side of the equation. The human physiology needs to be accounted for.


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greygoose
Auburn Fan
Member since Aug 2013
3182 posts

re: Someone Asked Why Aren’t CPAP Machines Being Used As Ventilators
quote:

So, you don't know a damn thing about the internal workings of the machine, but you can tell somebody else, why they can't make something work?


You should buy up some used cpaps on the cheap. Start converting them into ventilators. You'll be rich!


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