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Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:28 am to DarthRebel
Immunity incoming
6-3
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
6-3
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
This post was edited on 7/1/24 at 9:29 am
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:29 am to DarthRebel
Roberts, 6-3 decision on immunity
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:29 am to DarthRebel
Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature
of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity
from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclu-
sive constitutional authority. And he is entitled to at least presump-
tive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no
immunity for unofficial acts.
of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity
from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclu-
sive constitutional authority. And he is entitled to at least presump-
tive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no
immunity for unofficial acts.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:29 am to DarthRebel
As expected
quote:
Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority. And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no immunity for unofficial acts.
quote:
The Court therefore remands to the District Court to assess in the first instance whether a prosecution involving Trump’s alleged attempts to influence the Vice President’s oversight of the certification proceeding would pose any dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.
This post was edited on 7/1/24 at 9:31 am
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:30 am to rt3
quote:
The court holds that a former president has absolute immunity for his core constitutional powers.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:30 am to SlowFlowPro
Split the baby. Expected.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:30 am to anc
quote:
There is no
immunity for unofficial acts.
Lay that out SCOTUS
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:31 am to geauxtigers87
quote:
Roberts, 6-3 decision on immunity
Oh boy
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:31 am to HubbaBubba
quote:
Split the baby.
What?
This is the standard for most positions that get immunity.
What was split?
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:33 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
quote:
The court holds that a former president has absolute immunity for his core constitutional powers.
This is a lot stronger than getting remanded back to the DC court, right?
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:33 am to GumboPot
quote:
This is a lot stronger than getting remanded back to the DC court, right?
No. It’s exactly as expected.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:33 am to DarthRebel
quote:
Lay that out SCOTUS
They do. Go to page 5 of the ruling for a summary. It's too long to post (i was trying to)
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:34 am to SlowFlowPro
It was never going to be full immunity. Now the argument is over what defines an unofficial act. Should be fun.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:34 am to SlowFlowPro
This is the more important part I think... considering the arguments Trump's side was making
It's noted that Trump's side was saying his actions all fell on the "outer perimeter" of his authority
quote:
Taking into account these competing considerations, the Court concludes that the separation of powers principles explicated in the Court’s precedent necessitate at least a presumptive immunity from criminal prosecution for a President’s acts within the outer perimeter of his official responsibility. Such an immunity is required to safeguard the independence and effective functioning of the Executive Branch, and to enable the President to carry out his constitutional duties without undue caution. At a minimum, the President must be immune from prosecution for an official act unless the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no “dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 754. Pp. 12–15.
It's noted that Trump's side was saying his actions all fell on the "outer perimeter" of his authority
This post was edited on 7/1/24 at 9:36 am
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:34 am to GumboPot
So they have to prove Trump wanting to make sure the election was held fairly was an unofficial act?
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:34 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What?
This is the standard for most positions that get immunity.
What was split?
I believe Trump was clocked in on J6 so his acts were official.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:35 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Whenever the President and Vice President discuss their official responsibilities, they engage in official conduct. Presiding over the January 6 certification proceeding at which Members of Congress count
the electoral votes is a constitutional and statutory duty of the Vice
President. Art. II, §1, cl. 3; Amdt. 12; 3 U. S. C. §15. The indictment’s
allegations that Trump attempted to pressure the Vice President to
take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification proceeding thus involve official conduct, and Trump is at least presumptively immune from prosecution for such conduct.
The question then becomes whether that presumption of immunity
is rebutted under the circumstances. It is the Government’s burden to
rebut the presumption of immunity. The Court therefore remands to
the District Court to assess in the first instance whether a prosecution
involving Trump’s alleged attempts to influence the Vice President’s
oversight of the certification proceeding would pose any dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch. Pp.
21–24.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:35 am to GumboPot
Smack down incoming
quote:
The court in Part III of its opinion indicates that in this case "no court has thus far considered how" to distinguish between official and unofficial acts.
Moreover, Roberts continues, "the lower courts rendered their decisions on a highly expedited basis" and "did not analyze the conduct alleged in the indictment to decide which of it should be categorized as official and which unofficial" -- and it wasn't briefed before the Supreme Court.
Posted on 7/1/24 at 9:35 am to GumboPot
quote:
This is a lot stronger than getting remanded back to the DC court, right?
Read the whole quote I gave, with the emphasis I noted.
quote:
(iii) The indictment’s remaining allegations involve Trump’s interactions with persons outside the Executive Branch: state officials, private parties, and the general public. In particular, the indictment alleges that Trump and his co-conspirators attempted to convince certain state officials that election fraud had tainted the popular vote count in their States, and thus electoral votes for Trump’s opponent needed to be changed to electoral votes for Trump. After Trump failed to convince those officials to alter their state processes, he and his coconspirators allegedly developed and effectuated a plan to submit fraudulent slates of Presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding. On Trump’s view, the alleged conduct qualifies as official because it was undertaken to ensure the integrity and proper administration of the federal election. As the Government sees it, however, Trump can point to no plausible source of authority enabling the President to take such actions. Determining whose characterization may be correct, and with respect to which conduct, requires a fact-specific analysis of the indictment’s extensive and interrelated allegations. The Court accordingly remands to the District Court to determine in the first instance whether Trump’s conduct in this area qualifies as official or unofficial. Pp. 24–28.
(iv) The indictment also contains various allegations regarding Trump’s conduct in connection with the events of January 6 itself. The alleged conduct largely consists of Trump’s communications in the form of Tweets and a public address. The President possesses “extraordinary power to speak to his fellow citizens and on their behalf.” Trump v. Hawaii, 585 U. S. 667, 701. So most of a President’s public communications are likely to fall comfortably within the outer perimeter of his official responsibilities. There may, however, be contexts in which the President speaks in an unofficial capacity—perhaps as a candidate for office or party leader. To the extent that may be the case, objective analysis of “content, form, and context” will necessarily inform the inquiry. Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U. S. 443, 453. Whether the communications alleged in the indictment involve official conduct may depend on the content and context of each. This necessarily factbound analysis is best performed initially by the District Court. The Court therefore remands to the District Court to determine in the first instance whether this alleged conduct is official or unofficial. Pp. 28–30
(3) Presidents cannot be indicted based on conduct for which they are immune from prosecution. On remand, the District Court must carefully analyze the indictment’s remaining allegations to determine whether they too involve conduct for which a President must be immune from prosecution. And the parties and the District Court must ensure that sufficient allegations support the indictment’s charges without such conduct. Testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing such conduct may not be admitted as evidence at trial. Pp. 30–32.
quote:
(c) Trump asserts a far broader immunity than the limited one the Court recognizes, contending that the indictment must be dismissed because the Impeachment Judgment Clause requires that impeachment and Senate conviction precede a President’s criminal prosecution. But the text of the Clause does not address whether and on what conduct a President may be prosecuted if he was never impeached and convicted. See Art. I, §3, cl. 7. Historical evidence likewise lends little support to Trump’s position. The Federalist Papers on which Trump relies concerned the checks available against a sitting President; they did not endorse or even consider whether the Impeachment Judgment Clause immunizes a former President from prosecution. Transforming the political process of impeachment into a necessary step in the enforcement of criminal law finds little support in the text of the Constitution or the structure of the Nation’s Government. Pp. 32–34.
(d) The Government takes a similarly broad view, contending that the President enjoys no immunity from criminal prosecution for any action. On its view, as-applied challenges in the course of the trial suffice to protect Article II interests, and review of a district court’s decisions on such challenges should be deferred until after trial. But questions about whether the President may be held liable for particular actions, consistent with the separation of powers, must be addressed at the outset of a proceeding. Even if the President were ultimately not found liable for certain official actions, the possibility of an extended proceeding alone may render him “unduly cautious in the discharge of his official duties.” Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 752, n. 32. The Constitution does not tolerate such impediments to “the effective functioning of government.” Id., at 751. Pp. 34–37. (e) This case poses a question of lasting significance: When may a former President be prosecuted for official acts taken during his Presidency? In answering that question, unlike the political branches and the public at large, the Court cannot afford to fixate exclusively, or even primarily, on present exigencies. Enduring separation of powers principles guide our decision in this case. The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law. But under our system of separated powers, the President may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for his official acts. That immunity applies equally to all occupants of the Oval Office. Pp. 41–43.
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