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Started By
Message
re: Satanists seek spot next to Ten Commandments monument on steps of OK's Statehous
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:05 pm to CJM18
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:05 pm to CJM18
quote:
Remove God and we have no basis to say "murder and stealing are wrong"
Please watch this link about morality.
1
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:11 pm to sabes que
quote:
Please do some research on why secularist or non religious people still have morality, if not more, than religious people. You, implying that religion is necessary to have morality is completely erroneous. "Erroneous, erroneous on all accounts!"
They often do still have morality. I haven't said otherwise. The atheist can definitely have good morals. What I'm saying is there's absolutely no logical basis for those morals apart from an objective, transcendent reference point.
Again, I'll share these words from well known atheist Kai Nielson that acknowledged this reality.
“We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view, or that all really rational persons should not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason doesn’t decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me… Pure practical reason, even with a good knowledge of the facts, will not take you to morality.”
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:15 pm to CJM18
Our morality developed as part of our evolution. And is still developing. That is why we abhor slavery now, but did not used to. That is why we favor gender equality now, but did not used to. These moralities developed separately from the Bible or any religion.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:15 pm to sabes que
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:19 pm to sabes que
I haven't done any real research on this but my vague impression is that self-proclaimed "Satanists" don't actually believe in the existence of Satan. They're just particularly zealous in their hatred of organized religion. I say this from the viewpoint of an entirely unzealous atheist with mostly fond memories of a churchy childhood.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:27 pm to CJM18
quote:
The atheist can definitely have good morals. What I'm saying is there's absolutely no logical basis for those morals apart from an objective, transcendent reference point.
there is absolutely logical basis for morals without a personal god, and that logical basis is, well, logic.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:30 pm to shinerfan
quote:
I haven't done any real research on this but my vague impression is that self-proclaimed "Satanists" don't actually believe in the existence of Satan. They're just particularly zealous in their hatred of organized religion. I say this from the viewpoint of an entirely unzealous atheist with mostly fond memories of a churchy childhood.
From what I understand its more about a worship of the self. But not like a self from the eastern religion perspective. I mean like a selfish self type of thing, where you just pretty much do whatever will please you and indulge in every kind of impurity or sin because they are all pleasing to the body. Idk that is what I heard some satanist say one time, but who knows if he knows what the frick he was talking about, anyone who identifies themselves as a satanist is most likely crazy as hell anyway.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:32 pm to sabes que
quote:
Mine is 2 minutes long.
Post a longer one I'll watch it.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:48 pm to CJM18
I may actually end up watching that later. But just so you know, I am not an atheist. I don't reject the idea that it is possible that there is a creator or force bigger than us that we do not understand. But I have never seen evidence for an intervening, personal god. Prayer studies have been done, god does not heal or help those that pray to him, at least not physically. Just think about prayer for a second, by asking for something in a prayer, you are saying that you know more than god. Like "hey, I know that you are god, but I would really like if you could do x y z for me, thanks." And someone will get a raise a 2 dollar an hour raise at their job and then say "oh, praise god, I had been praying for god to help me financially"... meanwhile a mother in a third world country is begging god for food to feed her children, and her prayer goes unanswered and her child dies. How selfish and arrogant is it of the person that got the 2 dollar an hour raise at their job to "praise god" and act as if god has blessed them with their 2 dollar an hour raise but did not bless the third world mother with food for her children? If there is some sort of a god, I believe in more of a "Tao" type of thing, where it is pretty much just all of energy and all of life and that we are all one kind of thing. But the idea of the guy in the sky with a long beard is an old world view that is not compatible with evidence we see in the world.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 4:47 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:49 pm to TideCPA
quote:The judge's words speak for themselves.
Using the judge's own words to substantiate why the TC were removed = "duck, bob, and weave". You can't make this stuff up.
He was 100% correct, IMO.
But you drew a parallel between portrayal of the TCs in OK, and the monument in the Alabama case.
That is why I asked you how, in the Judge's own words, the Alabama monument represented a "specific purpose and effect of establishing a permanent recognition of the 'sovereignty of God,' the Judeo-Christian God, over all citizens in this country." The Judge chose his words well. Why do you think he said what he did regarding this one particular monument?
You've chosen not to answer, and that's fine too.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:52 pm to sabes que
quote:Good post
I don't reject the idea that it is possible that there is a creator or force bigger than us that we do not understand. But I have never seen evidence for an intervening, personal god. Prayer studies have been done, god done not heal or help those that pray to him, at least not physically. Just think about prayer for a second, by asking for something in a prayer, you are saying that you know more than god. Like "hey, I know that you are god, but I would really like if you could do x y z for me, thanks." And someone will get a raise a 2 dollar an hour raise at their job and then say "oh, praise god, I had been praying for god to help me financially"... meanwhile a mother in a third world country is begging god for food to feed her children, and her prayer goes unanswered and her child dies. How selfish and arrogant is it of the person that got the 2 dollar an hour raise at their job to "praise god" and act as if god has blessed them with their 2 dollar an hour raise but did not bless the third world mother with food for her children? If there some sort of a god, I believe in more of a "Tao" type of thing, where it is pretty much just all of energy and all of life and that we are all one kind of thing. But the idea of the guy in the sky with a long beard is an old world view that is not compatible with evidence we see in the world.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:59 pm to sabes que
That is why so much of the time religion really is unbelievable sophism and arrogance, masquerading as humility. "You are so humble, but god designed the universe with you in mind, everything you do has cosmic impacts, even your thoughts can be judged and have impacts on eternity, if you help someone out, it is partly because you want to help them out of love(which is evolutionary and everyone except for psychopaths are altruistic at least somewhat) but also because you want to help show other people that you know the secret to all of eternity and life(insert your particular faith here) and save yourself and them from eternal torture in hell." Where as a non believer can simply help out of love and compassion, not commit atrocities because he is not a beast, and admits that although he is part of the universe(which is pretty damn cool and fascinating), the universe is not designed with a special divine plan for his life. So, I ask again, who is more arrogant, the believer or the non believer?
Posted on 1/9/14 at 4:15 pm to sabes que
quote:
and admits that although he is part of the universe(which is pretty damn cool and fascinating), the universe is not designed with a special divine plan for his life.
And if you find the thought of there being no divine plan for your life depressing. Think about this quote be George Bernard Shaw- "Life is not about finding yourself, life is about creating yourself" that, combined with the fact that you are part of this great amazing universe, should uplift you a bit I should say.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 4:16 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The judge's words speak for themselves.
He was 100% correct, IMO.
Agree.
quote:
But you drew a parallel between portrayal of the TCs in OK, and the monument in the Alabama case.
False. I brought up this case in response to your contention that the intent behind the erection of the TC doesn't matter.
quote:
That is why I asked you how, in the Judge's own words, the Alabama monument represented a "specific purpose and effect of establishing a permanent recognition of the 'sovereignty of God,' the Judeo-Christian God, over all citizens in this country." The Judge chose his words well. Why do you think he said what he did regarding this one particular monument?
He said what he did because his interpretation of the intent behind the monument was that of a tacit endorsement of one religion over others by government officials.
quote:
You've chosen not to answer, and that's fine too.
You've chosen to make shite up, and that's fine too.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 4:17 pm to sabes que
quote:There are definitely folks who think that way. Don't know if I'd characterize it as the majority though. Then there are many who, like you, simply want to do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do. At least that's my world view (or hope).
also because you want to help show other people that you know the secret to all of eternity and life(insert your particular faith here) and save yourself and them from eternal torture in hell
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 4:18 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 4:26 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
There are definitely folks who think that way. Don't know if I'd characterize it as the majority though. Then there are many who, like you, simply want to do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do. At least that's my world view (or hope).
Yea, and I give the religious person credit for their good deed. I just think that they also would have an ulterior motive, but I guess it could also be, many times, an incentive, which is good I guess.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:28 pm to sabes que
quote:
I may actually end up watching that later.
Definitely do it.
quote:
But just so you know, I am not an atheist.
10-4
quote:
god does not heal or help those that pray to him, at least not physically.
How can you verify this? People pray for healing all the time and end up getting better.
quote:
Just think about prayer for a second, by asking for something in a prayer, you are saying that you know more than god.
I see what you mean and I've thought about it this way before also. But this isn't so. Do some reading on what the bible says about prayer.
quote:
but I would really like if you could do x y z for me, thanks."
This is not what Christian prayer is like. Christians don't pray for trivial things such as more money to buy stuff. Christians are praying for and going to the mother in the third world country.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 5:29 pm
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:58 pm to sabes que
quote:
quote: Just think about prayer for a second, by asking for something in a prayer, you are saying that you know more than god.
Jesus himself told us to pray and even gave his disciples instructions on how to do so. And the bible is full of examples that speak about prayer. Are you suggesting that all of these are wrong?
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