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Started By
Message
re: Red flag laws will not end mass shootings but will end due process
Posted on 6/14/22 at 12:56 pm to AggieHank86
Posted on 6/14/22 at 12:56 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Second Amendment makes no explicit exception for convicts currently serving time in prison. Should they have firearms?
Neat. So they're locked up? So.. It's reasonable to believe they do not face the same threats as we do on the outside?
We can go back and forth all day with ifs and buts. Red flag laws will be abused. You know that. I know that.
You think the founders would approve of red flag laws? I don't. Seems like it would go against everything they believed no?
1
Posted on 6/14/22 at 12:58 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
But the Second Amendment says nothing explicit about "due process" either. It does not have an ending clause "except subject to due process of law."
It’s addressed inherently via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.
The two don’t exist in their own vacuum. I can’t figure out what you’re even trying to argue, but someone else can plunge down the inane rabbit hole if they wish.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:00 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
By agreeing that a convict can be disarmed, you have acknowledged that there IS a "due process" provision implicit in the Second Amendment.
But there is NO due process afforded in red flag laws, so you are really comparing apples to oranges for the sake of argument here.
As usual, your position sucks...
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:00 pm to SleepyJoe
quote:I don't think that the Founders were nearly the ideological monolith that many today believe them to have been. I think that some would have been violently opposed to the notion of extreme violence protective orders and that others would have seen them as entirely reasonable provided that the matter was quickly adjudicated.
You think the founders would approve of red flag laws?
The Founders weren't that different from you and me.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:00 pm to basionok
Red Flag Laws: People like her/him/it will decide if you are sane enough to own a gun.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:04 pm to The Maj
quote:As usual, you are mistaken.
As usual, your position sucks.
Most "red flag laws" require a prompt contested evidentiary hearing ... usually within 72 hours.
That is a MUCH faster resolution that one normally gets in a criminal proceeding, and an accused criminal is OFTEN temporarily deprived of any number of civil liberties during the pendency of his criminal proceeding, which will usually last many months at a minimum.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:06 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Most "red flag laws" require a prompt contested evidentiary hearing ... usually within 72 hours.
So, that is the same due process that is afforded the convicted criminals your referred to in your earlier argument?
Like I said, your position sucks, as usual...
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:07 pm to AggieHank86
does'nt the bill being proposed have money for state's to set up red flag laws and not the govt?
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:08 pm to The Maj
quote:It is far BETTER protection than that afforded to many criminal defendants pending their trial, as I outlined in detail above.
Most "red flag laws" require a prompt contested evidentiary hearing ... usually within 72 hours.quote:
So, that is the same due process that is afforded the convicted criminals your referred to in your earlier argument?
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:10 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
It is far BETTER protection than that afforded to many criminal defendants pending their trial, as I outlined in detail above.
It is not due process, plain and simple. If you did not suck so bad, you could see it...
Try not to suck Hank...
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:11 pm to hawkeye007
To be clear, I have been discussing State red flag laws.
I think that federal red flag laws would be a terrible idea, for at least a half-dozen different reasons, including (but not limited to) the expense of litigating in federal court, the delays inherent in federal court and the fact that appointed federal judges are not subject to the same electoral ramifications as state court judges, if they engage in a pattern of really bad decisions on this type of ex parte order.
I think that federal red flag laws would be a terrible idea, for at least a half-dozen different reasons, including (but not limited to) the expense of litigating in federal court, the delays inherent in federal court and the fact that appointed federal judges are not subject to the same electoral ramifications as state court judges, if they engage in a pattern of really bad decisions on this type of ex parte order.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:14 pm to The Maj
quote:Hopefully, we can agree to disagree and be civil about it.
It is not due process, plain and simple. If you did not suck so bad, you could see it...
Suffice to say that I believe several hundred years of case law to support my assertion that a prompt hearing will satisfy due process concerns. I hope that you are not in the "mindless Troy" camp, asserting that those centuries of jurisprudence are not nearly so valuable as his own, personal interpretations of the concept.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:16 pm to AggieHank86
IMO if you've served your time & paid any restitution, etc., then you should get all of your rights back....if you want to have a grace period, let's say "if the convict stays completely out of trouble for 6 months, 1 year, etc." then they get all of their rights (voting & guns) back I'm good with it. If someone has a history of violent crime, then frick 'em, keep 'em in jail.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:17 pm to AggieHank86
i understand your point and agree, just wanted to point out that there is no federal red flag laws in the bill. They are leaving that to the states.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:21 pm to basionok
Red flag laws should come with a ten year prison sentence for anyone falsely reporting people but we all know that won't happen
Shits about to get bad
Shits about to get bad
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:22 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Hopefully, we can agree to disagree and be civil about it.
"I’m sure that Granny and Uncle Jedd are very proud of your accomplishments..."
"I suspect that your understanding of the concept of "due process" is roughly equivalent to your understanding of theoretical physics...."
"Just don't confuse your Pep Rally with a reasoned discussion of actual law or policy. "
"Great Ghu, you people are so predictable"
"You didn‘t really expect the OP to do any research, did you?"
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:23 pm to JColtF
10 years seems a bit harsh, but I wholeheartedly agree that there should be stiff penalties for bad faith use of such a statue.
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:24 pm to Flats
Politeness is my default setting, and I will always be polite to those who are polite to me. Those who attack me first can expect reciprocity.
Look at each of those quotes, and you will find that they were responsive to something worse from the other poster
For some reason, some folks think that good manners require one to be a doormat. They do not.
Look at each of those quotes, and you will find that they were responsive to something worse from the other poster
For some reason, some folks think that good manners require one to be a doormat. They do not.
This post was edited on 6/14/22 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:25 pm to basionok
Who is doing most of the mass shootings?
You think they give a frick about red flag laws?
You think they give a frick about red flag laws?
Posted on 6/14/22 at 1:31 pm to JColtF
quote:
falsely reporting people
Red flag laws will be used to disarm conservatives. They will be abused.
Just my .02.
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