re: Pope tells bishops not to accept gays into seminary; too much “frociaggine” already

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The Church that Jesus established didn't have a single Pope in Rome because the Church hadn't spread to Rome

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Nobody made this argument. We Catholics assert that Peter was made the vicar of Christ when Jesus gave him the keys, alluding to the steward of the Davidic kingdom having the keys, and thus, essentially running the kingdom in the king's absence. This was also a successive office.

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The Church that Jesus founded had elders and deacons, not priests,

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Might want to look up what else the word "presbyter" translates to. The word presbyter is etymologically the original form of “priest.”

Also, Ignatius, an actual student of a disciple (John), tells us that every church which could trace its origin back to a disciple of Jesus had priests and deacons, as well as a single bishop as it's head.

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The Church that Jesus founded had the word of God as its authority,

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The Word of God isn't synonymous with scripture. In fact, if you do a word study of the phrase in the Bible, it overwhelmingly refers to Apostolic tradition passed on orally, and doesn't refer to New Testament scripture a single time. Also, the NT scriptures didn't exist yet when Christ founded His Church.

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Catholicism was corrupted over time

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The Apostacy that never happened. This is a very mormonistic argument.

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You bragging about "Catholicism" being first (it was the catholic church, not the Roman Catholic church that was actually first)

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The Catholic church only ever officially refers to itself as the Catholic church. "Roman Catholic" is a very popular misnomer...a nickname, if you will.

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The Synod of Toulouse condemned the Bible to be owned by lay people

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I stopped reading here. You're arguing like a KJV-only pre-trib rapture believing fundamentalist baptist right now by repeating the same old boring arguments that have been thoroughly debunked.

The Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language which taught the heresies that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter (and thus physical flesh) is evil. From this the heretics concluded that fornication could not be sin, and they even encouraged suicide among their members. 

The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation.

oh nooooooooz mickey suckmill wont like this

good good they should not be admitted anyway



i am sure many have snuck in as clergy in many churches. they are not openly ordained in the catholic church and never will be. too many fake churches do that now i listed in the episcopal thread

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Pegged out.

They'll have to raise the limit or adjust the numbers

(no message)

I'm thoroughly disappointed the other thread was removed.

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Nobody made this argument. We Catholics assert that Peter was made the vicar of Christ when Jesus gave him the keys, alluding to the steward of the Davidic kingdom having the keys, and thus, essentially running the kingdom in the king's absence. This was also a successive office.

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Catholics assert such things falsely. But that wasn't my point. Papal infallibility states that the Bishop of Rome speaks infallibly when speaking from the chair. It's the bishop of Rome only that is taught holds the keys and has primacy. Rome is the focal point, though, as I said, Rome had no bishop at all when Christ ascended to Heaven.

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Might want to look up what else the word "presbyter" translates to. The word presbyter is etymologically the original form of “priest.”

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Presbyter means "elder" in Hebrew and "bishop" in Greek. Elder is a title of honor while bishop is a title of function, which means overseer. That's why Presbyterians are elder-led in terms of polity.

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Also, Ignatius, an actual student of a disciple (John), tells us that every church which could trace its origin back to a disciple of Jesus had priests and deacons, as well as a single bishop as it's head.

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And yet the Bible says that the two offices that were created to rule and serve the church were Elders and Deacons. Both have specific qualifications for office given, and each new church that was founded were to be created with a plurality of elders. That's what the Scriptures teach.

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The Word of God isn't synonymous with scripture. In fact, if you do a word study of the phrase in the Bible, it overwhelmingly refers to Apostolic tradition passed on orally, and doesn't refer to New Testament scripture a single time. Also, the NT scriptures didn't exist yet when Christ founded His Church.

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The Word of God refers to the revelation of God that was preserved for the Church. The Scriptures are the only thing that is referred to as God-breathed, which is why they are sufficient for making the man of God complete for every good work. The revelation of God through the Apostles came in both oral word and letter, with the letter being the record of that revelation to be preserved after the Apostles died. That is the pattern of all revelation: God sends prophets (those who speak with God's authority) to His people to provide revelation of truth. Those things which God intends to be preserved for the Church are eventually written down under the inspiration of the Spirit. We have that in the New Testament Scriptures.

If you want to go beyond the Scriptures as God's preserved Word, you need to show evidence that what Rome claims as sacred oral tradition was believed as such from the very beginning, not a development hundreds of years later. Just as Jesus rejected the traditions of men that held as authoritative the oral teachings of Moses in favor of the written Scriptures, so to do I reject the supposed oral teachings that were not recorded for us early on and had major disagreements over until finally Rome said "it's settled because I say so".

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The Apostacy that never happened. This is a very mormonistic argument.

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It most certainly did. It's why the Reformation occurred and why other smaller reformations were attempted prior to that one. It's also why Rome reformed herself. She just didn't claim to have apostatized. However accepting and teaching a false gospel made Rome heretical.

The Mormons teach that the Bible was corrupted. Saying that fallible men got it wrong and the expression of the Church in Rome was corrupted is not the same thing as saying the Word of God was corrupted.

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The Catholic church only ever officially refers to itself as the Catholic church. "Roman Catholic" is a very popular misnomer...a nickname, if you will.

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I'm quite aware, however the difference must be stated because Roman Catholics today will see the fathers refer to the "catholic" church or "catholic" faith and assume they're talking about the exact same thing that modern Catholics are talking about. Eventually development turns to evolution and one thing stops looking like the other.

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I stopped reading here.

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You shouldn't have.

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You're arguing like a KJV-only pre-trib rapture believing fundamentalist baptist right now by repeating the same old boring arguments that have been thoroughly debunked.

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"Debunked". This is a discussion forum. You debunk it if you want to participate in the discussion.

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The Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language which taught the heresies that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter (and thus physical flesh) is evil. From this the heretics concluded that fornication could not be sin, and they even encouraged suicide among their members.

The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation.

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There's a difference between offering counsel to a young Christian not to read the NWT and banning it entirely. However that's not what the Council said. They didn't say "no one is allowed to own a copy of the Albigensian translation the Bible". What did they say?

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The realist view of sola scriptura and what it did to Christendom was to erode the Church's role in daily life and society, and to instead promote the state as the dominant force in man's life.

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Sin happens. That isn't the fault of the Scriptures or an assent to the Scriptures being the only infallible rule for faith and life. That's a problem with sinners.

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Sola scriptura afforded princes and principalities with a chance to pursue their own ends and to disregard mother Church.

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Catholicism did the same thing for hundreds of years prior to the Reformation. There was quite a lot of evil being performed under the banner of the church. And at the end of the day, those evil people could sleep soundly at night knowing that their sins would be forgiven if they gave the right amount of money or performed the right number of good works to make up for it.

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This is why the seeds of moral relativism in today's West can directly be traced back to Luther and his cohorts desire to make each man an independent being with their own independent truth. The idea's poison is part of it's recipe, as we now see moral relativism wrecking the remnants of all confession-driven denominations.

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Luther didn't teach that man was a rule to himself. That's antagonistic to sola scriptura which puts the Bible as the only infallible rule for the Christian. What you're describing in the individual's preference as the only infallible rule. While Christians have the liberty to read and seek to understand the Bible for themselves, they don't have the liberty to interpret God's Word wrongly. God will hold everyone accountable for what they did with the gift of His Word that He gave to them.

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Act 2 will be worse, as nondenominational and non-hierarchical "Churches" rise up without any idea of what they actually believe, or any idea of how to teach their followings. Today, go to Healing Place, Chapel on the Campus, Bethany, Church of the Highlands, or any ARC group and get a straight answer on whether contraception, IVF, divorce/remarriage, or Masturbation are permitted. Tomorrow, be ready to ask if the Trinity is valid, if Jesus was born of a virgin, or if Jesus conquered death and rose again.

The pipe dream of the Jefferson Bible (where Thomas Jefferson removed the supernatural and instead made the NT a collection of "good dude idioms") is coming fast for the protestant chruch in America and the west.

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You may be right, but those things are happening in denominations that have absolutely disregarded the Scriptures as God's infallible Word. Look at the liberalism that has crept in to the churches in America and you'll see that liberalism coming directly from challenges to the Bible as God's infallible word. Again, the problem isn't with the Bible as the rule, but the sinners as the rule-breakers.

Bible Alone has failed and is proven to be a flawed invention of a few human beings.

We know this because, now that Bible Alone is about 500 years old, we see that this man-made system for discerning theological Truth has resulted in a widely diverse range of theological "truth".

On the very important point of God's Plan for Human Sexuality, the Bible Alone system has created an absurd situation in which mainline Protestant denominations stand across from one another at the debate table, point to one another and each declare the other wrong, based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Gay Sex OK? Gay Sex is Sin? Bible Alone system of discerning theological Truth results in this absurdity in which both sides are right and wrong simultaneously.

Logic dictates that this Bible Alone system may not be from The Holy Spirit, because it has resulted in complete confusion on this issue of God's Plan for Human Sexuality.