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re: Passing a law designating Islam as a political movement
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:20 pm to Boom33
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:20 pm to Boom33
quote:You are using your own dogma to condemn my dogma, and acting like my dogma is bad while yours is good, whatever it is. Just be open about it and justify what you believe. I've been open about what I believe.
Again, this is just dogma. It's impossible to have meaningful conversation with you because you believe everyone must have accepted the same dogma you have.
1
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:23 pm to Boom33
quote:Wow, apparently all one needs to do in order to have a conversation in this place is to just say "dogma". No justification. No alternative. Just "dogma".
Dogma
Sounds like you've given up on the conversation.
quote:If you believed someone was heading towards disaster, you would want to warn them, right? That would be a good thing according to your worldview, right?
I didn't demand anything of you. I specifically told you I wasn't really interested in debating with you. You were the one who had to tell me I was going to hell and all that other bullshite.
Well that's what I'm doing. I'm warning you about your impending destruction and calling you to turn around and go down the path that leads to life. You can ignore me and mock me all you want, but at the end of the day, I'm trying to protect you from yourself by obeying the words of Jesus and calling you to follow Him.
And for someone who isn't interested in debating me, you've certainly shared a lot of words to not debate me.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:24 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You don't think you'll be accountable to God, because you deny that He exists.
Never once said that.
quote:
You may embrace a false view of God (or another god or deity entirely), but then again, you haven't really said what you believe about anything, other than you reject biblical Christianity.
Dogma
quote:
1. All people will be held accountable for what they do in this life. The difference is that such accountability looks different for the saved vs. the unsaved. The unsaved will face God's wrath in Hell for eternity. The saved will have greater or lesser blessings in Heaven; everyone will have a full cup, but each cup may be different in size in Heaven.
No, they are held accountable to things before they did in life according to you.
And according to your marketing pamphlet, the only remedy is your pill.
quote:
2. I do not fear being held accountable, because the Christian message is that if you trust in Jesus by faith, you are no longer condemned. I'm no longer condemned, so I obey out of thankfulness, not fear.
Except you accept it to being with out of fear to the point you try to make it your main selling point.
quote:
3. I don't know what you mean by this unless you're saying that Jesus is a whipping boy. If so, I demand nothing. I acknowledge what God demands, which is that justice demands payment for sin, and only the blood of God, Himself, is of sufficient value to redeem mankind from the guilt of sin.
Yes Jesus is your whipping boy. His murder and punishment is what saves you. Because apparently God is incapable of just forgiving people on his own.
And outside that, just more dogma.
quote:
Not in that analogy, though. If you want to go back to federal representation, we'll need to go to another analogy, like being born into a nation engaged in warfare because of the actions of its leaders. I'm specifically focusing on your actual sins in the speeding analogy. And really, I was only mentioning it to help you understand the principle of substitutionary atonement: paying the debt of another.
See above: not in the scenario I gave about speeding. You're confusing analogies. With that said, in God's eyes, you have actually broken the speed laws.
It's not my fault you choose poor analogies because you want to gloss over the part where God makes people so he can torture them. I guess because deep down you know that's some evil shite.
I never asked for your help. You can't replace the real thing no matter how hard you try.
quote:
It's not about joining anything, but believing what God, Himself, has said. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. That includes you: you will not go to the Father unless you submit to the Son, and look to Him by faith to forgive you.
Dogma that requires the blind acceptance of the bible as the word of God. Because God is incapable of speaking to people directly according to you, and if he does, he's only going to support your beliefs. Anything anyone may experience that contradicts your views is either false or whatever.
Because all you really know is dogma.
quote:
Whatever it is you believe is the lie. You have deceived yourself--or have been deceived by Satan--to the point of rejecting the only means to eternal life.
And more dogma because it's impossible you are wrong.
quote:
He does not. Your interpretation of what constitutes a lie and so on is the problem here. For one, He is allowed to alter outcomes based on other factors, such as His own forgiveness and long-suffering. For another, what is intended in the original promise can be better understood by the eventual outcome, such as Adam "dying" on the day he sins is his beginning to die (becoming able to die and his body deteriorating until eventual death). You can't assume a lie or contradiction when one is not necessary.
Excuses for a lying God. Reminds me of Trump worshippers. "He didn't say that, and if he did he didn't mean it. And if he did mean it, then it was for good reason and I'm glad he said it".
quote:
You assume it's "blind" acceptance. It isn't. It's acceptance based on claims that comport with reality.
It is blind acceptance. To the point where you don't even remotely know how to debate someone who won't accept those things with you.
You can't just debate the contents of the bible on it's merits, it has to be God's word and that makes it true no matter what blah blah blah.
When do I get my slaves if I convert?
quote:
Then correct me. You've offered nothing here but criticisms and are leaving me to just guess about your presuppositions. We all have presuppositions and no one is neutral, not even you. However, I've engaged with enough people of differing religions and ideologies that I know that you are irrational in whatever it is you actually believe. You'll need to justify what is morally "good" and "evil", for instance, rather than just condemning God against an unstated standard.
It's not my job to correct me. I've only offered criticisms because you are stuck in dogma and there is no real conversation or debate that is even possible with you.
You will repeat your dogma over and over and anything I say would be dismissed by you as "of Satan", claims that it didn't happen and whatever else.
I'll point out the source of your errors and ignorance and that's all you'll get.
quote:
Yes, God is condemning a lot more criminals right now. That's not a logical problem, but apparently that's an emotional one for you.
He made everyone criminals and knew when he made them the end result would be them burning in hell according to your claims. And even then, only a small portion of the ones can be "saved".
quote:
Whatever the number is, you have not provided reasoning for why such a thing is unjust or immoral. You've only arbitrarily (so far) stated that it's evil for God to condemn the sinful.
According to you:
God created all these people.
He then condemned them to hell based on the actions of Adam and Eve.
What they did in life after that point doesn't even matter. Unless you happen to be born in a culture in the past 2000 years that has Jesus and you believe the story that human sacrifice can save you.
Babies who die and can't understand shite - going to hell.
My autistic grandson - going to hell.
Anyone not born in the right culture - going to hell.
Anyone who questions the silly story - going to hell.
And it's all by his design according to you.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:28 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You are using your own dogma to condemn my dogma, and acting like my dogma is bad while yours is good, whatever it is. Just be open about it and justify what you believe. I've been open about what I believe.
My own dogma?
You're so eat up in the dogma you just assume everyone must have some form of it?
Do you think the phrase - seek and you will find means blindly accepting whatever people feed you?
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:32 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Wow, apparently all one needs to do in order to have a conversation in this place is to just say "dogma". No justification. No alternative. Just "dogma".
Sounds like you've given up on the conversation.
You just keep repeating the same things over and over like any other NPC.
The bible is the word of God because the bible says the bible is the word of God.
You can't reason with someone who didn't get their positions based on reason to start with.
quote:
If you believed someone was heading towards disaster, you would want to warn them, right? That would be a good thing according to your worldview, right?
Well that's what I'm doing. I'm warning you about your impending destruction and calling you to turn around and go down the path that leads to life. You can ignore me and mock me all you want, but at the end of the day, I'm trying to protect you from yourself by obeying the words of Jesus and calling you to follow Him.
And for someone who isn't interested in debating me, you've certainly shared a lot of words to not debate me.
If they could hear me. You don't have the ears.
You aren't trying to protect me; you're just a marketer.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:37 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:It would treat religions differently, if that's what you're asking: Christianity is preferred, and all others are treated equally among themselves, but different from Christianity.
I'm just asking for clarification. Are you saying that the quote above does or does not impose limitations on adherents of other religions that would not be imposed on Christians?
It would allow private exercise of religion and not coerce any religious belief at all, yet would allow for the public support and freedom of the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and allow for Christian-based laws to be passed (though would not require it).
quote:It wouldn't require a religious test in and of itself, though that could be required separately (though that would require a change to Article 6), as most of the colonies did prior to the founding of the country. However, it would also not allow for laws to be passed that put Islam or other religions on equal footing with Christianity, such as requiring schools to give equal time to teaching of Islam.
For example, would Mooslims be barred from holding office, or to flip that around, would someone have to be a professing Christian in order to hold office?
If not, then I don't understand what you're advocating for other than an empty phrase.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I don't think you get it. If I put an ad in the paper for a free millions dollars to be given to anyone who shows up and holds out their hands to receive it, I'm not actually putting any requirements on it other than to believe the offer enough to receive the gift. I'm not asking for anything in return but your acceptance. Even in that scenario, you would have to physically have to go to where I am to receive the money, but here and now, the gospel is given to you so that all you have to do is read these words and trust that Jesus has died to pay for your sins, and you will receive payment for your sins. The only requirement is for you to believe it. So in a sense, that's more "free" than you driving a few miles down the road to pick up a million dollars.
You simply don't believe the offer is genuine and therefore don't accept it.
Going back to the ruler and the pardon scenario: if a King sent a message to a prison saying he'll be showing up later that day to pardon anyone who stands before him and says they are sorry for their crimes, then you would be the prisoner who doesn't show up because you believe the offer is not true, that there is no king, and if there was a king, that he would be cruel for not simply making a decree to release all the prisoners. What you are missing is that if you just believe the offer and show up to receive it, you will be pardoned. That's not a problem with God, but with you.
No, you require me to believe that God is an evil shithead who creates people just so he can torture them.
And then because he's a fricking idiot I guess, has to come into human form so that he can be murdered. And then I must believe that his murder will save me.
And to save me from a condition you only claim I have, to which there is no supporting evidence.
Oh and I must worship an idol.
That's the opposite of free.
quote:
You use "dogma" as if it's a bad word. Dogma is just authoritative teaching, particularly on religious or moral issues.
You clearly have some set principles you live by and some truths you think are true. If have your own dogmas, whatever they are.
That aside, I'm speaking about philosophy at this point. Philosophically speaking, you have to ground truth in something beyond arbitrary thought originating in the minds of people. You haven't grounded truth--moral truth or otherwise--in anything, and you really can't. I'm curious what you ground it in, because so far, you have made a lot of comments about God and certain actions being "evil", but haven't provided a basis for such a statement beyond your mere opinion.
Dogma is blind accepted to things without question. Because questioning it will expose its flaws.
You aren't' even speaking philosophically. You just keep repeating the same few basic dogma over and over.
God gives understanding to those who seek it, not those who blindly accept what is fed to them.
quote:
God's word is not God, but it's not contrary to God, because His word reflects His mind and His commands. While His words are not Him, His words represent Him so much that to believe His words is to believe Him. I'm not worshiping His words, but I'm worshipping Him and obeying Him by obeying His words. On the other hand, you cannot truly worship Him rightly without His words, because it's in His words that He reveals how He wants to be worshipped.
See above for my response to blind acceptance and "dogma".
Just more of the bible is God's word because the bible says it's Gods word. AKA dogma.
quote:
What we are discussing is truth claims. So far, I'm offering a positive reason for truth claims that I believe are true, and you are just saying "nuh uh". You aren't providing any alternative to this point, not are you justifying your criticisms in anything beyond your personal opinion.
An alternative is not required to prove something false.
quote:
God didn't "make" everyone to be sinners, but He does count each person as guilty of Adam's sin based on a decision to have a federal representative. If Adam had obeyed, all his children would be born with a righteous disposition and imputed righteousness rather than mere innocence. As it stands, it is guilt and sin that we have, because Adam failed. That's precisely why Jesus became a man, obeyed the law perfectly, and died in our place.
Oh, so we aren't really born sinners, we're just being held accountable by God for the actions of others.
How the frick can you say this shite with a straight face?
quote:
If God would arbitrarily forgive people, He would be unjust. I said it previously, but it would be like a judge that forgives a mass murderer and sets them free "just because". It would be a denial of justice, and such a judge would deserve castigation rather than praise.
So, it's only just to forgive people if they believe in human sacrifice. Same actions in 2 people. One said yeah, that's for murdering that fricker to pay my debts for me!
And that is justice?
quote:
As was stated previously, God can create as He sees fit, and He does not owe anyone anything good in this life. Just like a potter can create a pot to use for target practice, God can create a person to show His power in, and show His mercy towards others.
More excuses for shitty behavior.
Does the potter punish the pot for not being perfect for all of eternity because the pot was exactly as the potter made him?
quote:
I think I know what's going on here: you assume all people are innocent and deserve good things in this life (and even some life to come, if you believe that even exists), and that if there were a God, He would owe all people those good things, or at least a chance to earn those good things through good works.
I'm just point out the bullshite in your claims. You are the one that claims people are born with sin already, and you are the one that claims only people who join your religion are saved.
My standards and requirements are much higher than yours, not lower.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You know what? All religions and ideologies in this world emphasize "good works" of some kind as their basis of "salvation", whatever that looks like. Everyone thinks that good things come to good people, and goodness is measured by scales being tipped to one side with arbitrary requirements for what "good" even means. Any alteration to this thinking is met with calls of unfairness.
People can believe whatever the frick they want. Good things happen to shitty people all the time and bad things happen to good people all the time.
But again, you are the one who claims everyone is shitty upon birth. So shitty when they are born, that they will spend eternity in hell.
quote:
Christianity is not a works-based religion. Works are involved, for sure, but not as the basis for being right with God. We cannot lift ourselves up by our own boot straps, but we must rely on God to save us, because we can't do enough good works to overcome the evil we do.
It's a death cult built on human sacrifice. You even wear the tool used to murder him around your necks and display many other idols around your houses and properties. Your favorite part of him is not his life, but all about his death. Because that's the part you think benefits you, and that is what you care about most.
You have low standards and I find it disgusting. Especially as you sit around and preach to others as if you are of the holy and as if you represent it. Doing all sorts of evil in his name, recruiting based on fear and lies.
I know whose world this is. Keeping telling lies that it's God's world when it's not while you feast on the things that replace him.
quote:
Whatever it is you believe, you cannot be saved apart from Jesus Christ.
You would deny Jesus the moment he didn't share your dogmatic view.
This post was edited on 8/18/26 at 6:11 pm
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:42 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
It would treat religions differently, if that's what you're asking: Christianity is preferred, and all others are treated equally among themselves, but different from Christianity.
It would allow private exercise of religion and not coerce any religious belief at all, yet would allow for the public support and freedom of the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and allow for Christian-based laws to be passed (though would not require it).
It wouldn't require a religious test in and of itself, though that could be required separately (though that would require a change to Article 6), as most of the colonies did prior to the founding of the country. However, it would also not allow for laws to be passed that put Islam or other religions on equal footing with Christianity, such as requiring schools to give equal time to teaching of Islam.
O.k., that's what I thought. You want to treat people differently under the law.
No judgement, but I think you'll need a different country for that. There was a time when this one was o.k. doing that sort of thing, but that time is further and further in the rearview mirror and I think it's only going to keep getting smaller.
This post was edited on 8/18/26 at 6:45 pm
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:45 pm to Boom33
quote:It sounds like you don't believe the God of the Bible exists.
Never once said that.
quote:You keep complaining about the concept of original sin, but it sounds like you don't even like the idea of holding everyone accountable for their actual sins. Even if original sin wasn't a thing and you excluded children up to a certain age, everyone sins and is therefore deserving of Hell. You just keep pivoting between issues because you can't justify your objections.
No, they are held accountable to things before they did in life according to you.
And according to your marketing pamphlet, the only remedy is your pill.
And it's not my "pill", but God's "pill" that cures the illness.
Do you think everyone goes to Heaven when they die?
quote:Like I said previously, you don't have to be afraid of Hell to believe it. You just have to accept that it is a terrible fate that you don't want to experience. Fear may or may not accompany that logical conclusion.
Except you accept it to being with out of fear to the point you try to make it your main selling point.
quote:Justice demands the price be paid. If God could arbitrarily forgive sin, then He wouldn't be just, and then you'd be here complaining about His lack of justice rather than His lack of mercy, as you see it. It's because you hate God, the true God. You believe in some idol, apparently.
Yes Jesus is your whipping boy. His murder and punishment is what saves you. Because apparently God is incapable of just forgiving people on his own.
quote:The analogies are not poor. They just explain different concepts, and you can't differentiate between them. That's why I have been providing clarifications for you.
It's not my fault you choose poor analogies because you want to gloss over the part where God makes people so he can torture them. I guess because deep down you know that's some evil shite.
quote:Helping you should, in theory, also help me, since if you have a better understanding of the concept, you'll stop making arguments against things that I'm not saying and the Bible doesn't teach.
I never asked for your help. You can't replace the real thing no matter how hard you try.
quote:Blind? No. However Christ's sheep hear His voice, so if you recognize God in His Word, you will accept what He says.
Dogma that requires the blind acceptance of the bible as the word of God.
quote:God won't contradict Himself, and if His revelation about what we need to know is complete, then there is no need for God to speak directly to people, though He may do so if He pleases. He's provided the test, though: if someone claims God spoke to them, their "revelation" should be tested against what came before (the Bible).
Because God is incapable of speaking to people directly according to you, and if he does, he's only going to support your beliefs. Anything anyone may experience that contradicts your views is either false or whatever.
quote:Seriously. It's obvious you are hostile to the teachings of Christianity. I'm not saying anything novel here, but what Christians have taught regarding Bible interpretation for 2,000 years. You have to read words in context. It's common for those hostile to the faith to completely ignore context and try to compare one word, phrase, or sentence against another and then ridicule anyone who says that context matters.
Excuses for a lying God. Reminds me of Trump worshippers. "He didn't say that, and if he did he didn't mean it. And if he did mean it, then it was for good reason and I'm glad he said it".
quote:I've debated atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and even weird beliefs that have no organization to them, but were just someone's personal experience. The problem I'm having with you is that you are purposefully not telling me what you believe, and then acting like I'm stupid for not knowing how engage with your particular beliefs. It's not a defect in my beliefs, but because you aren't engaging in good faith, as I see it. You just attack me personally and keep saying "dogma" over and over again.
It is blind acceptance. To the point where you don't even remotely know how to debate someone who won't accept those things with you.
You can't just debate the contents of the bible on it's merits, it has to be God's word and that makes it true no matter what blah blah blah.
quote:You've taken it upon yourself to correct me, so if you're going to do that, you take on some level of responsibility to debate truth the truth claims. If you are going to say I'm wrong, you need to justify it according to your own beliefs, otherwise you are just saying "nuh uh", which is essentially what you've been doing.
It's not my job to correct me. I've only offered criticisms because you are stuck in dogma and there is no real conversation or debate that is even possible with you.
And yes, debate is possible. I'm making truth claims and so are you. We have to examine them, and that's what I'm doing.
quote:If you want to say something other than "no" and "dogma", then go ahead. Otherwise you are just making mere assertions and not justifying them. If you want to waste your time with that, then so be it. I'll continue to justify my claims and highlight your bad-faith commentary so others can see it for what it is.
You will repeat your dogma over and over and anything I say would be dismissed by you as "of Satan", claims that it didn't happen and whatever else.
I'll point out the source of your errors and ignorance and that's all you'll get.
quote:God declared all guilty because of our representative so that He could declare many "innocent" (and even "righteous") through the work of Jesus Christ, so He could show His mercy to untold millions of people.
He made everyone criminals and knew when he made them the end result would be them burning in hell according to your claims. And even then, only a small portion of the ones can be "saved".
If you're going to say God is immoral, you need to not only justify your standard for morality, but you need to logically explain why federal representation, justice, and limited expressions of mercy are immoral. So far, you've just asserted that God's a big meanie.
quote:According to God... not me.
According to you:
God created all these people.
He then condemned them to hell based on the actions of Adam and Eve.
What they did in life after that point doesn't even matter. Unless you happen to be born in a culture in the past 2000 years that has Jesus and you believe the story that human sacrifice can save you.
Babies who die and can't understand shite - going to hell.
My autistic grandson - going to hell.
Anyone not born in the right culture - going to hell.
Anyone who questions the silly story - going to hell.
And it's all by his design according to you.
God created all people, yes. Nothing was made that wasn't ultimately made by God.
God condemned sinners to Hell for rebellion against Him, based in part on our guilt according to our federal representative (Adam), and in part due to our own sin.
There is good reason to believe that babies of at least one believing parent are saved if they die young because God grants faith, even if the understanding isn't there or mature.
I don't know your autistic grandson, but there is hope for him, too. I would hope that you would repent and believe in Jesus and then share the gospel with him, if he isn't saved already.
Everyone born is deserving of Hell, which is why God sends His people out to all cultures and peoples to hear the good news that you are rejecting right now.
Questioning God won't damn anyone. You aren't questioning; you are rejecting.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:48 pm to Boom33
quote:Yes, your own dogma. I defined it for you, and you are judging me and my words based on what you believe is true. Your dogma.
My own dogma?
You're so eat up in the dogma you just assume everyone must have some form of it?
quote:No. I'm not asking you to blindly do anything. I'm telling you what God's word says, and instead of investigating it and asking clarifying questions, you are immediately hostile to it and attacking me for saying what I'm saying. This entire exchange has been one of hostility by you.
Do you think the phrase - seek and you will find means blindly accepting whatever people feed you?
Posted on 8/18/26 at 6:52 pm to Boom33
quote:I've spent quite a bit of time explaining what I believe and defending it. You've spent most of your words criticizing me personally and saying things like "dogma" over and over again. It's clear you have a chip on your shoulder and you are determined to stick it to a Christian who dares say something is true which you disagree with.
You just keep repeating the same things over and over like any other NPC.
quote:The Bible is the word of God because it comports with reality and justifies the reality we live in. It provides a rational basis for what we experience every day, from logic to math to science to morality, and provides an answer to the guilt we have (feelings of guilt for what we do), and an answer for where we came from and where we are going, which are questions that we naturally have and want answered. There are many reasons why the Bible should be believed to be the word of God beyond that it claims to be, but that doesn't matter to you, because it's easier for you to just emote your hatred.
The bible is the word of God because the bible says the bible is the word of God.
quote:You have no basis for reason, at least you haven't provided one. I can justify the existence of reason within the biblical framework. What's your justification?
You can't reason with someone who didn't get their positions based on reason to start with.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:05 pm to The Boat
Lmfao what a dumb thread full of retard commie bootlickers
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:14 pm to Boom33
quote:No, I don't. You are making that moral claim, yourself, without justifying why anything is even "evil" in your worldview. I'm explaining that God is not evil.
No, you require me to believe that God is an evil shithead who creates people just so he can torture them.
quote:Justice demands sin be atoned for. Humans need a representative to pay for their sin, otherwise God could have just destroyed an arbitrary rock or bucket of sand or something. Human sin needed a human payment, and yet no humans have enough inherent value to pay for all the sins of all humanity, which is why the human also had to be God. That's where Jesus came into the equation.
And then because he's a fricking idiot I guess, has to come into human form so that he can be murdered. And then I must believe that his murder will save me.
quote:God claims it. Your sin is evidence. You sin every day.
And to save me from a condition you only claim I have, to which there is no supporting evidence.
quote:You already worship an idol, whatever it is.
Oh and I must worship an idol.
quote:No it's not. All you have to do is believe the message. That's as free as anything can possibly be, because you don't have to perform any other actions to receive it. It's more free than receiving a "free" bag with one million dollars in it. You don't seem to understand what "free" means.
That's the opposite of free.
quote:That's absolutely not true; that's your own made-up definition to justify your constant use of the word as a pejorative.
Dogma is blind accepted to things without question. Because questioning it will expose its flaws.
quote:I'm speaking of presuppositions, ultimate's, epistemology, logical inference and deduction, and rationalization. You are just saying "dogma" and "evil" over and over again.
You aren't' even speaking philosophically. You just keep repeating the same few basic dogma over and over.
quote:You are just making blind assertions without justification and then complaining that I'm doing the same thing. Look in the mirror.
Just more of the bible is God's word because the bible says it's Gods word. AKA dogma.
quote:You have to provide justification for that which you use to prove something false. You have provided no rational basis for reason, itself, nor for morality, yet you claim God is evil (morality) and lacks rationality (reason). What's your standard for those things? Where do they come from in your worldview?
An alternative is not required to prove something false.
quote:You must have glossed over when I explained federalism, several times.
Oh, so we aren't really born sinners, we're just being held accountable by God for the actions of others.
How the frick can you say this shite with a straight face?
I can keep a straight face when speaking the truth.
quote:You keep making an absurdity of what is actually being said. It's a straw man.
So, it's only just to forgive people if they believe in human sacrifice. Same actions in 2 people. One said yeah, that's for murdering that fricker to pay my debts for me!
And that is justice?
Forgiveness exists for all people. All they need to do is accept it. You are rejecting it right now, so no, it's not absurd. The payment of sin that Jesus offered was of infinite worth, but the only condition is simply accepting it.
quote:According to what standard? Why do you keep stating your dogma without supporting it? Aren't you accusing me of that?
More excuses for ****** behavior.
quote:Again, you're confusing God's authority to destroy His creation with federal representation. Those are two different concepts that are joined in election and reprobation.
Does the potter punish the pot for not being perfect for all of eternity because the pot was exactly as the potter made him?
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” -Romans 9:19-20
God has the right to make us and destroy us. He owes us nothing. The onus is on you to explain why God owes us anything, good or otherwise. You are asserting that God is evil for making us with guilt imputed to us already and then destroying us for our guilt (both imputed and actual). You're also not addressing the fact that people have actual sins to account for. You sin against God and are doing so right now, and no one is forcing you to do that. You are doing what you want to do. You are guilty.
quote:You have to have some standard to make such a judgement, and so far, you haven't provided that standard. All you've done is state your opinion.
I'm just point out the bullshite in your claims.
quote:God claims this, because it's true.
You are the one that claims people are born with sin already, and you are the one that claims only people who join your religion are saved.
quote:Your standards are arbitrary and you have not shown otherwise.
My standards and requirements are much higher than yours, not lower.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:26 pm to Boom33
quote:Except Christians, right?
People can believe whatever the frick they want.
You have spent multiple pages now explaining how Christians believe evil, stupid things, in order to show that we are wrong. Then you go on to say people can believe whatever they want. You aren't acting consistently. If you really believed that, you wouldn't spend any time trying to convince anyone that they are wrong.
quote:That sounds like you are saying what happens in this life is arbitrary, and no one should expect justice. Right? How do you account for that in your worldview?
Good things happen to ****** people all the time and bad things happen to good people all the time.
quote:Guilty, yes. And that's why the free offer of pardon exists. Take it now before it's too late.
But again, you are the one who claims everyone is ****** upon birth. So ****** when they are born, that they will spend eternity in hell.
quote:Jesus' death is crucial for the payment of sin, but so is His divine nature, His virgin birth, His perfect obedience in life, His teaching of the truth, His resurrection of the dead, His ascension to glory, His rule in Heaven right now, and His return at the end of this age.
It's a death cult built on human sacrifice. You even wear the tool used to murder him around your necks and display many other idols around your houses and properties. Your favorite part of him is not his life, but all about his death. Because that's the part you think benefits you, and that is what you care about most.
Christianity is a religion of life, not death. You will suffer eternal death--damnation--unless you trust in what Jesus did. If you believe it, you will be moved immediately from death to life, and will live forever.
quote:Your standards appear to be arbitrary, and therefore your disgust is nothing more than your opinion. Why should I or anyone else care about your opinion?
You have low standards and I find it disgusting.
quote:I'm not presenting myself as "holy". I'm a sinner like everyone else. The difference is that I'm forgiven, and I seek to be obedient to God out of thankfulness for my salvation.
Especially as you sit around and preach to others as if you are of the holy and as if you represent it. Doing all sorts of evil in his name, recruiting based on fear and lies.
What "evil" am I doing in God's name? The worst thing you can accuse me of is being deceived about the Bible, because I believe sinners are going to be judged for their sin, and I'm calling them to turn and be saved.
I'm calling people to get out of a burning building and you're saying I'm evil for believing the building is on fire. I might be wrong about that, but I'm not evil for wanting others to be saved.
quote:Tell me more about this. Where did you learn this dogma about it who this world belongs to?
I know whose world this is. Keeping telling lies that it's God's world when it's not while you feast on the things that replace him.
quote:Nope. I am to be conformed to Him, not Him to me.
You would deny Jesus the moment he didn't share your dogmatic view.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:27 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
It sounds like you don't believe the God of the Bible exists.
Just because you say false things about God doesn't mean God doesn't exist. That's just your own arrogance.
quote:
You keep complaining about the concept of original sin, but it sounds like you don't even like the idea of holding everyone accountable for their actual sins. Even if original sin wasn't a thing and you excluded children up to a certain age, everyone sins and is therefore deserving of Hell. You just keep pivoting between issues because you can't justify your objections.
And it's not my "pill", but God's "pill" that cures the illness.
Do you think everyone goes to Heaven when they die?
Because your original sin is a lie and stupid. And you keep claim to speak for God out of ignorance.
No, most people do not go to Heaven. That doesn't mean they burn in hell either. Everyone will at some point return to God.
quote:
Like I said previously, you don't have to be afraid of Hell to believe it. You just have to accept that it is a terrible fate that you don't want to experience. Fear may or may not accompany that logical conclusion.
You don't care what emotion someone has as long as they believe you and use it to come to the religion you market?
quote:
Justice demands the price be paid. If God could arbitrarily forgive sin, then He wouldn't be just, and then you'd be here complaining about His lack of justice rather than His lack of mercy, as you see it. It's because you hate God, the true God. You believe in some idol, apparently.
He does arbitrarily forgive sin. All someone has to do is believe in the human sacrifice.
It otherwise does not matter what kind of life they lived according to you. You tell me someone can live a perfect life, but they will go to hell for eternity because they were born in sin. Meanwhile someone can murder millions and they are saved if they just believe in the human sacrtifice.
And we all die; it's not like Jesus did something the rest of us are immune from. And it's not like him doing so protected us from that death either, we all still die.
And you are literally an idol worshiper. But tell me, what idol do you think I worship?
quote:
Helping you should, in theory, also help me, since if you have a better understanding of the concept, you'll stop making arguments against things that I'm not saying and the Bible doesn't teach.
I know all your arguments before you make them.
quote:
Blind? No. However Christ's sheep hear His voice, so if you recognize God in His Word, you will accept what He says.
Well, as I said. I guess God determined when he made me that I was to burn in hell for eternity since I refuse to accept that the bible is the word of God and all your other dogma.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:27 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
God won't contradict Himself, and if His revelation about what we need to know is complete, then there is no need for God to speak directly to people, though He may do so if He pleases. He's provided the test, though: if someone claims God spoke to them, their "revelation" should be tested against what came before (the Bible).
Yeah, except for all the billions of people who go to hell and never even heard of Jesus, any type of understanding and/or decided they should maybe question what they are told to see if it makes sense.
Oh and a return of Jesus is needed to fix it all in the end. And we'll just wait around for that because why not allow billions more into hell, torturing is fun!
Yep, nailed it.
How do you say this shite with a straight face?
quote:
Seriously. It's obvious you are hostile to the teachings of Christianity. I'm not saying anything novel here, but what Christians have taught regarding Bible interpretation for 2,000 years. You have to read words in context. It's common for those hostile to the faith to completely ignore context and try to compare one word, phrase, or sentence against another and then ridicule anyone who says that context matters.
I often defend Christians, but only when people say false things.
Don't preach to me about context, you have told me in your own words what you believe it to mean.
quote:
I've debated atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and even weird beliefs that have no organization to them, but were just someone's personal experience. The problem I'm having with you is that you are purposefully not telling me what you believe, and then acting like I'm stupid for not knowing how engage with your particular beliefs. It's not a defect in my beliefs, but because you aren't engaging in good faith, as I see it. You just attack me personally and keep saying "dogma" over and over again.
The problem you are having is all those other people just accept the dogma with you and I don't. I point it out, and you don't like that because you struggle to deal with it.
And stop blaming me because you decided to assume shite about me. I've only addressed the claims you've made.
quote:
You've taken it upon yourself to correct me, so if you're going to do that, you take on some level of responsibility to debate truth the truth claims. If you are going to say I'm wrong, you need to justify it according to your own beliefs, otherwise you are just saying "nuh uh", which is essentially what you've been doing.
And yes, debate is possible. I'm making truth claims and so are you. We have to examine them, and that's what I'm doing.
False, I told you early in the thread I didn't have much interest in debating you. And you started going on about how you took the time and all this shite. You asked for it, and now you are crying about it.
You are stuck in dogma. I do not throw seeds on concrete.
quote:
If you want to say something other than "no" and "dogma", then go ahead. Otherwise you are just making mere assertions and not justifying them. If you want to waste your time with that, then so be it. I'll continue to justify my claims and highlight your bad-faith commentary so others can see it for what it is.
You are the one making the assertions and failing to justify them.
That is what dogma is, you can't justify them you've just accepted them and then you assert them without question.
quote:
God declared all guilty because of our representative so that He could declare many "innocent" (and even "righteous") through the work of Jesus Christ, so He could show His mercy to untold millions of people.
If you're going to say God is immoral, you need to not only justify your standard for morality, but you need to logically explain why federal representation, justice, and limited expressions of mercy are immoral. So far, you've just asserted that God's a big meanie.
You could just say you don't understand anything rather than being forced to resort to this kind of stuff.
His "gift" is untold to billions. The part you want to ignore because your marketing is focused on scaring someone and then having them only thing about saving themselves.
What you claim about God is what makes him immoral.
quote:
According to God... not me.
Again, this is dogma. "I'm not responsible for these things, God did it".
quote:
God created all people, yes. Nothing was made that wasn't ultimately made by God.
God condemned sinners to Hell for rebellion against Him, based in part on our guilt according to our federal representative (Adam), and in part due to our own sin.
So being born is rebelling against God.
I don't remember voting for Adam. Never met the guy, pretty sure he never fricking existed as well, and the entire thing is just a story of general explanation on the understanding of the time.
quote:
There is good reason to believe that babies of at least one believing parent are saved if they die young because God grants faith, even if the understanding isn't there or mature.
Babies burning in hell sounds awesome. I bet they scream extremely loud. I wonder if God gets an extra kick out of it.
I can God looking down at it and yelling Your dad should have been a Christian! As the baby screams in agony for its rebellion.
And then you insult me by telling me your God is just.
quote:
I don't know your autistic grandson, but there is hope for him, too. I would hope that you would repent and believe in Jesus and then share the gospel with him, if he isn't saved already.
But you're perfectly fine with him burning in hell and thinking God is just for doing so if I don't.
Have I told you how disgusting I think you are yet?
quote:
Everyone born is deserving of Hell, which is why God sends His people out to all cultures and peoples to hear the good news that you are rejecting right now.
Again, have I told you how disgusting I think you are yet? You not only defending this shite you actively support it and try to claim it's justified.
Their fault though, right? Too bad they didn't have time to learn about the human sacrifice!
What a piece of shite you claim God to be.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:28 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:I recognize that I'm a minority on this position. I'll keep working towards that end, even if it doesn't happen this side of Heaven. I'm happy to have these discussions, share my perspective, and continue working (and voting) towards what I believe is the best thing for this country.
O.k., that's what I thought. You want to treat people differently under the law.
No judgement, but I think you'll need a different country for that. There was a time when this one was o.k. doing that sort of thing, but that time is further and further in the rearview mirror and I think it's only going to keep getting smaller.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:43 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Except Christians, right?
You have spent multiple pages now explaining how Christians believe evil, stupid things, in order to show that we are wrong. Then you go on to say people can believe whatever they want. You aren't acting consistently. If you really believed that, you wouldn't spend any time trying to convince anyone that they are wrong.
You have a God given right to believe whatever you want. I would never stop you. Which is why I support the 1st amendment. I will stop you from infringing on others though.
You are the one who wants to restrict people based on their beliefs. Or have you forgotten already?
quote:
That sounds like you are saying what happens in this life is arbitrary, and no one should expect justice. Right? How do you account for that in your worldview?
I'm saying life isn't what you claimed it to be in your previous post and none of us have a full understanding of exactly why shite happens.
quote:
Guilty, yes. And that's why the free offer of pardon exists. Take it now before it's too late.
Or what you claim is bullshite and you are just trying to market a product. Got any vacuum cleaners?
quote:
Jesus' death is crucial for the payment of sin, but so is His divine nature, His virgin birth, His perfect obedience in life, His teaching of the truth, His resurrection of the dead, His ascension to glory, His rule in Heaven right now, and His return at the end of this age.
Christianity is a religion of life, not death. You will suffer eternal death--damnation--unless you trust in what Jesus did. If you believe it, you will be moved immediately from death to life, and will live forever.
It's about his death. That's all you talk about, it's what all your symbolism and idols are about. It's what you keep selling to me now.
If you cared about his life and other things, I wouldn't have trouble seeing the connection between you and him.
quote:
Your standards appear to be arbitrary, and therefore your disgust is nothing more than your opinion. Why should I or anyone else care about your opinion?
Your only standards are the bible is the word of god and jesus died for your sins so you get a free pass.
You don't care about my opinion; you just want to hear yours coming out of my mouth.
quote:
I'm not presenting myself as "holy". I'm a sinner like everyone else. The difference is that I'm forgiven, and I seek to be obedient to God out of thankfulness for my salvation.
What "evil" am I doing in God's name? The worst thing you can accuse me of is being deceived about the Bible, because I believe sinners are going to be judged for their sin, and I'm calling them to turn and be saved.
I'm calling people to get out of a burning building and you're saying I'm evil for believing the building is on fire. I might be wrong about that, but I'm not evil for wanting others to be saved.
You claim to speak for God.
quote:
Tell me more about this. Where did you learn this dogma about it who this world belongs to?
It's not dogma, it's obvious in how the world works. Evil is funded by central banking, those who sell themselves to that cause are rewarded, those who stand in the way of it are killed. After they are killed their memories are distorted until they serve the beast that killed them.
quote:
Nope. I am to be conformed to Him, not Him to me.
You are assuming you would accept him first.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 7:45 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Yes, your own dogma. I defined it for you, and you are judging me and my words based on what you believe is true. Your dogma.
That is not what dogma is.
quote:
No. I'm not asking you to blindly do anything. I'm telling you what God's word says, and instead of investigating it and asking clarifying questions, you are immediately hostile to it and attacking me for saying what I'm saying. This entire exchange has been one of hostility by you.
This is what dogma is.
You keep telling me the bible is the word of God. That is dogma. That requires a blind acceptance of which cannot be questioned.
It is quite amusing however that you are accusing me of dogma and at the same time accusing me of not sharing my beliefs.
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