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Posted on 8/18/26 at 12:45 pm to The Boat
quote:
The Constitution doesn’t say what a religion is
It also doesn't say what arms are, either.
Do your really want to go down that road? Because, as much as we may hate it, at some point the Democrats will be back in power again.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 12:47 pm to Boom33
Sounds good.
It’s been a fun thought exercise.
Rules tend to get tossed aside when the existential shite gets real.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 12:50 pm to geoag58
quote:
What you are describing is an invasion.
The American people have the right and the duty to repel an invasion
There is just one teeny weeny flaw in your logic.
You assume that the majority of "the American people" agree with you. I think that's very unlikely. Hell, approximately half of the country is Democrat. They sure as hell don't agree with you.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 12:58 pm to Boom33
quote:
Because I'm not supporting another group, I'm supporting the constitution and everyone's rights.
You are literally wanting to destroy the constitution. If you can't figure out how to solve the issue without destroying the values of liberty and the other things the constitution is supposed to protect, then you have no solution.
Not to mention the fact that morons who come up with these retarded ideas always assume something that is never true, and that is this: they assume that our party will be in power forever. Just wait until the Democrats have the White House and both houses of Congress. Then they use the precedent that this stupidity set in order to regulate from their beliefs what a religion is and isn't, what "arms" are and are not, etc. "The Founding Fathers never envisioned the type of weaponry wwould be avilable in the 21st century." "True religion dictates that we love everyone...straight, gay, and trans." Etc, etc, etc.
This post was edited on 8/18/26 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 8/18/26 at 1:29 pm to Boom33
quote:I'll repeat what I said previously: politics is about forcing your beliefs on others. You think there is a right way to live life and to govern society and you advocate for that right way. You do it through voting and telling others what is right and wrong about your views and theirs, in hopes to persuade others of changing their minds. At the end of the day, you'll continue to hope that your perspective wins out and becomes (or remains) law.
No, it's about the bullshite you claim is "most honoring to God".
In reality it's just you trying to force your fairytale on others.
The difference between us, then, is that we have differing beliefs we want imposed on society.
Also, while I've been trying to keep this civil, you keep calling me names and mocking what I believe rather than engaging with it intellectually. Perhaps I should start calling your atheistic irrationality based on "fairytales", too, like the fairytale of moral objectivism within the context of evolutionary theory. I prefer to use words like "irrational", though, since I'm still trying to treat you like an adult, even if I think you are wrong.
quote:Where is my statement wrong? That everyone is trying to push their views through politics? Please explain how I'm wrong about that.
Wrong. I don't have to like your views to defend your right to them.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 2:20 pm to Boom33
quote:You wish it were made up, since then you wouldn't be accountable for what you do.
This is just all shite that is made up and you're just trying to manipulate me/people through fear.
Regarding the accusation of manipulation through fear: fear should exist to warn you, but that's not the motivator for the Christian. If you were going 50 MPH over the speed limit and I knew a police officer was ahead with a radar gun, waiting for you, and I warned you about it, you could tell me that I'm just trying to use fear to manipulate you into slowing down, but that wouldn't make the consequences less real if it happens.
I'm ultimately telling you about actions and consequences, and whether you fear those consequences or not is actually irrelevant except in terms of motivation for you to understand those consequences and change your actions. You don't actually have to be afraid of a terrible judgement to know that it would be bad for you if it were true, and therefore you can attempt to change your course of action based on reason rather than emotion.
quote:You need to do better than that. You have to explain the basis for why you can call anything evil, and then you have to explain why God saving some guilty people and not all is evil.
And the idea you are saved from these things while others aren't because you believe in a human sacrifice 2000 years ago is just straight up evil.
Like I used in the analogy of the ruler who pardons criminals: just because that ruler doesn't pardon every criminal doesn't mean he's evil. He owes no criminal a pardon in the first place.
quote:That's not a lie, because you have to interpret the Bible within its own context. God cannot lie, so obviously when Jesus says "all things are possible" He isn't speaking of literally "all things", including sinning or ceasing to be God, but of all things in accordance with His will, which is how Christians have reconciled the Scriptures for 2,000 years. A contradiction requires that the same sense being spoken of directly contradicts the same sense an opposite claim is spoken of.
He lies multiple times in the bible. All things are possible for God except to lie?
quote:You're right that the number of people believing something doesn't make that thing true, but that wasn't my argument. I was pointing out that while you are focusing on how many sinners are not saved, there are many, many other people who are saved but who don't deserve that salvation.
No, it's not and no they haven't. The amount of people who fall for a scam has nothing to do with the rest.
quote:I do have spiritual truth because God's Word is truth. You lack truth altogether in your worldview, because you have no rational basis for the reality you live in each day, whether that be morality or objective and immaterial concepts like logic, science, or mathematics. You can't support the world you live in because you reject the one who makes all that possible.
You have no spiritual truth at all. All you know to do is repeat a book you've accepted as authority. And then you try to manipulate and demand that everyone else accepts the same book as the authority.
quote:There fulness of the number of people God will save is not complete. The concluded revelation is for those who live and die in the meantime.
Besides, what is the point in him going to get cigarettes and the promise of returning one day if it was complete?
quote:That's just your opinion, which is meaningless. You're also making an emotional "argument", rather than dealing with the claim and why it's either objective immoral or irrational.
This is all just more baseless claims and dogma and suggests that God makes people just so he can torture them. He knows what they are going to do before he creates them, he does it anyway, and then he punishes them for his actions. That is your claim.
quote:A free gift must be accepted. That's always true. You don't have to do anything to earn it, though, which is why it's a free gift and not a wage.
It's not a free gift. A free gift means I have to do nothing. You expect me to adopt a doctrine of dogma and fantasy based on the claims of a collection of books that not only constantly contradict each other, but are basically fricking evil.
And all you can do is make excuses for it and again, tell people they must accept your dogma.
quote:You have no basis for objective truth and you are saying that I'm looking in the wrong place for it? That's very strange. On the contrary, God has spoken so that we may know Him, and He has become a man so that He can understand His own creation. We have words, which are truth. You have nothing but your own opinions and preferences, and necessarily so.
Furthermore, I'm saying you don't know shite about God. You know a book that claims to be about God. That is much different than knowing God. And you'll never find God either because you don't even know where to look.
quote:No, it's God's standard. I'm not making up my own message, but share the same message that Christians have understood from the same source text since it was given.
And it's not God's standard; it's your standard based on a book which you claim is of God.
quote:As I said above, all gifts must be accepted or else you never can possess them. There is no requirement for you to do anything but accept it, which you refuse to do. I'm not asking you to turn your back on God, but turn your back on your own self-deception.
Why does your free gift come with a requirement of me? That's not free. In fact, you're asking me to turn my back on God. Just accept this idol and replacement of God!
quote:You are twisting the words of God to make Him out to be a monster so that can skirt your obligations and deny that He is Lord.
And once again you're telling me God creates billions and billions of people just so he can torture them for all of eternity. It's all a bunch of horseshite. You don't know God, you wouldn't' make those kinds of claims and lies if you did.
He doesn't create billions of people "just so he can torture them for all eternity". He has many reasons for why He creates people even if their end is to be destroyed. He does it for His own glory, but also for the good of His people. Those are the two primary purposes for all that He does.
quote:As an atheist, you have no duty at all. And you certainly don't have a standard to judge anything as "evil". You have no obligation because there is no one you are accountable to, according to your own worldview. Even your words like these betray the truth: you know deep down there is a God and that there is an objective standard for good and evil that you are to judge by. You just can't justify those things as an atheist.
It is my duty to hate evil.
quote:Yes, all are born with sin and deserve judgement for that alone, because of our representative. Even so, most people have actual sins that they commit, like you, right now. Even if I were exclude all the babies and toddlers, most people who have ever lived and will ever live have their own sin that they are accountable to God for. God's knowledge of that sin doesn't change their guilt, so yes, it's their fault.
You previously claimed they were born with sin. And God created them knowing damn good and well what they would do. And yet you tell me it's their fault, not their creators who apparently specifically created them so he could torture them later for eternity. Not a matter of punished for the purpose of learning, but just plain torture with no end.
quote:Sin had to be paid for. Plain and simple. You either pay the tab yourself, or accept that God paid it for you.
So god had to kill himself in order to forgive other people. And only those people who believe he did it?
Posted on 8/18/26 at 2:27 pm to Boom33
quote:Everyone dies due to sin, yes, but what you are describing is murder, not a willing sacrifice. Your neighbor volunteering to pay your debts so you don't go to jail is more akin to what the Christian message is.
My neighbor said he was also dying for me before I killed him...wink wink.
Everyone dies.
quote:Then you need to justify your truth claims if you're going to say that something is true. Where does truth come from in your worldview?
I'm not even close to be atheist. I have understanding well beyond yours, I am merely entertaining your ignorance.
quote:He is. You are a sinner who can't stand in His presence as you are. You must be cleansed from the guilt of your sin and be clothed with the perfect righteousness of Jesus by receiving the gift of forgiveness by faith in Jesus. You can't stand before God any other way.
Your God is not holy.
quote:I'm telling you that you must bow down to God, and especially Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who has all authority over the nations. You owe Him your allegiance.
And what you are asking me to actually do is bow down your religion and beliefs while trying to manipulate me with fear by claiming you speak for God.
I'm not trying to manipulate you (that assumes I'm trying to lead you astray), but telling you about the truth and warning you against the road to destruction you are on.
quote:I know what He has revealed, and since He cannot lie, I know God. His Spirit is within me and testifies to the truth of His Word, and He has been revealed through Jesus, who took on a human nature over 2,000 years ago now, and who was crucified for the sins of the world, so that whoever believes in Him can be forgiven.
The truth is, you don't know shite about God.
Since you deny your creator, you are a fool, as the Scriptures teach.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 2:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Everyone dies due to sin, yes, but what you are describing is murder, not a willing sacrifice. Your neighbor volunteering to pay your debts so you don't go to jail is more akin to what the Christian message is.
What you describe with Jesus was murder.
Once again, you go on about debts that do not exist. I'm not accepting your dogma no matter how much you push it.
quote:
Then you need to justify your truth claims if you're going to say that something is true. Where does truth come from in your worldview?
I don't have to do anything.
quote:
He is. You are a sinner who can't stand in His presence as you are. You must be cleansed from the guilt of your sin and be clothed with the perfect righteousness of Jesus by receiving the gift of forgiveness by faith in Jesus. You can't stand before God any other way.
I've already stood before God, so obviously this can't be true.
quote:
I'm telling you that you must bow down to God, and especially Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who has all authority over the nations. You owe Him your allegiance.
I'm not trying to manipulate you (that assumes I'm trying to lead you astray), but telling you about the truth and warning you against the road to destruction you are on.
No, you are telling me I must bow down to your dogmatic view of God which is completely different.
quote:
I know what He has revealed, and since He cannot lie, I know God. His Spirit is within me and testifies to the truth of His Word, and He has been revealed through Jesus, who took on a human nature over 2,000 years ago now, and who was crucified for the sins of the world, so that whoever believes in Him can be forgiven.
Since you deny your creator, you are a fool, as the Scriptures teach.
He lies multiple times in the bible in addition to using lies to his own ends. Even instructs others to lie in order to achieve his apparent goals.
And once again I do not deny God, I deny the bullshite you claim about God.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 2:39 pm to BamaGradinTn
quote:
Not to mention the fact that morons who come up with these retarded ideas always assume something that is never true, and that is this: they assume that our party will be in power forever.
It's actually even a little more stupid than that. The populist justification for these sorts of genius ideas are usually more based in a, "We must do unto them before they do unto us," narrative.
So not only would they pave the way for retribution when the "other team" gets in power, they actually start the fight and invite the retribution. All the while doing so by eroding the constitutional protection that stands between all of us and government tyranny.
The dumbest part being that the supposed reasoning for the action in the first place is because XYZ group that they want to exempt from equal treatment under the law is supposedly going to oppose American values.
So they just oppose American values first.
It's really genius level stuff.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You wish it were made up, since then you wouldn't be accountable for what you do.
I've never once said or indicated I wouldn't be accountable for what I do.
YOU are the one who is trying to tell me I won't be held accountable for what I do as long as I buy into your snake oil.
YOU are the one who fears being held accountable for what you've done.
YOU are the one who demands a whipping boy.
quote:
Regarding the accusation of manipulation through fear: fear should exist to warn you, but that's not the motivator for the Christian. If you were going 50 MPH over the speed limit and I knew a police officer was ahead with a radar gun, waiting for you, and I warned you about it, you could tell me that I'm just trying to use fear to manipulate you into slowing down, but that wouldn't make the consequences less real if it happens.
No, you claim I was guilty of speeding before I even got into the car. And that I will get that ticket no matter what unless I join your religion and dogma.
You claim that it doesn't matter if I slow down or what speed I do. You tell me that even if I drive exactly the speed limit, I'm getting that ticket. And then you tell me the guy doing 90mph doesn't get a ticket at all, because you murdered some dude 2000 years ago and he paid the ticket for you.
It's all lies and manipulation.
quote:
You need to do better than that. You have to explain the basis for why you can call anything evil, and then you have to explain why God saving some guilty people and not all is evil.
Like I used in the analogy of the ruler who pardons criminals: just because that ruler doesn't pardon every criminal doesn't mean he's evil. He owes no criminal a pardon in the first place.
Did the ruler didn't create all those people as criminals from the start and then decided to torture and burn them for eternity for his actions.
That's what you claim God does. That is evil.
quote:
That's not a lie, because you have to interpret the Bible within its own context. God cannot lie, so obviously when Jesus says "all things are possible" He isn't speaking of literally "all things", including sinning or ceasing to be God, but of all things in accordance with His will, which is how Christians have reconciled the Scriptures for 2,000 years. A contradiction requires that the same sense being spoken of directly contradicts the same sense an opposite claim is spoken of.
This is just dogma.
In the bible, God lies. He instructs other people to lie. He murders, he instructs people to murder.
Hell, you can't even make it more than 3 chapters in the bible before God tells the first lie to Adam.
quote:
You're right that the number of people believing something doesn't make that thing true, but that wasn't my argument. I was pointing out that while you are focusing on how many sinners are not saved, there are many, many other people who are saved but who don't deserve that salvation.
You're asking me to concentrate on the left hand while ignoring the right hand.
And the simple fact remains that according to you, God has created about 99% of humans to burn in hell for eternity.
It's like someone robbing you for $20 and giving $1 back and you telling me how good a person was because they gave you the $1.
Only a sick frick would create billions of humans just so he could torture them.
quote:
I do have spiritual truth because God's Word is truth. You lack truth altogether in your worldview, because you have no rational basis for the reality you live in each day, whether that be morality or objective and immaterial concepts like logic, science, or mathematics. You can't support the world you live in because you reject the one who makes all that possible.
Dogma and the requirement of accepting a book is God's word without question.
You aren't rational at all. Being rational doesn't start with blind acceptance.
You don't even know my worldview but that's not going to stop you from making claims right? You'll just assume whatever makes you happiest and is least threatening to your dogmatic "reasoning".
quote:
There fulness of the number of people God will save is not complete. The concluded revelation is for those who live and die in the meantime.
Still burning the frick outta many more people.
quote:
That's just your opinion, which is meaningless. You're also making an emotional "argument", rather than dealing with the claim and why it's either objective immoral or irrational.
Dogma has a definition. And its simple math that like 99% of humans who walked this earth are burning in hell according to your claims.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:14 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
A free gift must be accepted. That's always true. You don't have to do anything to earn it, though, which is why it's a free gift and not a wage.
I do have to do things to earn it. If it was free gift to everyone, then nobody would have to do anything to get it. You instead have requirements to receive this "free" gift.
Because it's marketing bullshite.
quote:
You have no basis for objective truth and you are saying that I'm looking in the wrong place for it? That's very strange. On the contrary, God has spoken so that we may know Him, and He has become a man so that He can understand His own creation. We have words, which are truth. You have nothing but your own opinions and preferences, and necessarily so.
Your basis for objectional truth is just the blind acceptance that the bible is the word of God and so forth. That is DOGMA, not objectional truth.
quote:
No, it's God's standard. I'm not making up my own message, but share the same message that Christians have understood from the same source text since it was given.
You've replaced God with a book. Of which has to be accepted blindly, aka dogma.
You can't even remotely begin to debate without the dogma. Everything you say is based on your dogma and blind acceptance. Of which you likely think is a strength you're so ate up with it.
quote:
As I said above, all gifts must be accepted or else you never can possess them. There is no requirement for you to do anything but accept it, which you refuse to do. I'm not asking you to turn your back on God, but turn your back on your own self-deception.
It's not a gift when it has to be paid for. If it's free, then I wouldn't need to worship human sacrifice or pretend like a God who creates people just so he can torture and burn them is worthy of worship.
You're just trying to piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
quote:
You are twisting the words of God to make Him out to be a monster so that can skirt your obligations and deny that He is Lord.
He doesn't create billions of people "just so he can torture them for all eternity". He has many reasons for why He creates people even if their end is to be destroyed. He does it for His own glory, but also for the good of His people. Those are the two primary purposes for all that He does.
I didn't twist anything. It's literally what the frick you claim. Anyone who doesn't accept your dogma is going to hell. That is the majority of people historically and currently.
Don't get mad because it gets pointed out and doesn't match the talking points of your dogmatic pamphlets.
quote:
As an atheist, you have no duty at all. And you certainly don't have a standard to judge anything as "evil". You have no obligation because there is no one you are accountable to, according to your own worldview. Even your words like these betray the truth: you know deep down there is a God and that there is an objective standard for good and evil that you are to judge by. You just can't justify those things as an atheist.
I'm not an atheist dumbass.
quote:
Yes, all are born with sin and deserve judgement for that alone, because of our representative. Even so, most people have actual sins that they commit, like you, right now. Even if I were exclude all the babies and toddlers, most people who have ever lived and will ever live have their own sin that they are accountable to God for. God's knowledge of that sin doesn't change their guilt, so yes, it's their fault.
I hold myself to higher standards than you, not lower.
quote:
Sin had to be paid for. Plain and simple. You either pay the tab yourself, or accept that God paid it for you.
This is just dogma, and it's stupid. The claim is God made everyone to be sinners, and they need to believe in the death of Jesus to be saved.
Because apparently God can't just forgive people. Or even just recognize that according to you, he created them that way, knowing full well the entire time how they would be, and that he would just burn and torture them for recognizing.
Oh but then he came to earth and was killed so that he could forgive SOME people, so long as they worship human sacrifice.
What a load of horse shite.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:20 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:I propose that Christianity be given a special status, baked into the Constitution, without barring the free exercise of non-Christian religion. I'm looking for a preference for Christianity while not requiring adherence to it.
I don't either, but that's not what's being proposed.
Eroding the 1st amendment means that it's eroded for everybody. Doing the same thing to some other group that you and others want to do to Mooslims wouldn't be "improper use," it would just be plain old use.
Unless you are proposing unequal treatment under the law.
Is that your proposal?
I mean, I know that it is, but I want to see if you'll admit it.
A potential proposal for a change to the establishment clause of the 1st amendment might look like this:
"Congress, acknowledging Jesus Christ as King of the nations, shall make no law establishing any ecclesiastical body or compelling adherence to any religion; nor shall it prohibit the free private exercise of any religion, nor exclude the Christian faith from the institutions and proceedings of the nation."
This language acknowledges Jesus as King over the nation while not forcing profession in the Christian religion, and neither does it create a specific denominational state church.
What it also doesn't do is pretend religious neutrality while functionally actively promoting secular humanism by allowing non-religious ideologies from having their say in the public marketplace of ideas while excluding Christians simply due to our religious status.
This post was edited on 8/18/26 at 5:27 pm
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:36 pm to Boom33
quote:You reject God's claims about Himself. These are not my unique and made-up beliefs that originated from my own mind.
I don't reject God, I reject your bullshite claims about God.
quote:Reality shows order in the universe, and universal, invariant, and immaterial laws that reflect the very mind of God. You reject that this is true and seek an alternative to the reality you live in, not based on God's presence and powerful upholding of the universe.
No, you claim them. Once again back to the dogma that the bible (as you interpret it even) must be his word and nothing else is. That's a suspension of belief I'm not interested in, I prefer reality.
And no, it's not merely my claim. It's God's claim that I and sharing with you.
quote:You keep twisting the true message to make it sound like something that it isn't.
Is this the same God who apparently needed to come here so he could be murdered and thus somehow save people these same laws he is exempt to?
It's not that God is exempt from the law, but that the law reflects His very character. The application of the law is based on God's authority over it. As I said previously, it's not a double standard for government and citizens when there is a law stating that a citizen cannot unlawfully kill another citizen, while the government lawfully kills a citizen. According to the law, the death penalty is a justifiable act, but murder is not. Not all killing is murder, and God taking the life of His creation is not murder; it's not unlawful.
quote:You again speak as if you have no choice in this matter, because you're just too smart to believe the promise God gives. That's just not the case, because Christianity is not irrational, nor is it a matter of blind faith. It's a reasonable faith, and some of the most brilliant philosophers the world has seen have started from a Christian worldview, grounded in biblical theology.
I guess a large % of us were just chosen by God to burn in hell for eternity. Damn him for giving me a brain with critical thinking skills? Why couldn't my gift just be ignorance and a willingness to blindly accept dogma?
The transcendental argument for God, for instance, posits that all thinking and reasoning is grounded in God, who makes all that possible, and that you cannot reason without God's existence.
You reducing Christianity down to ignorance and blindness doesn't help you, because it makes you sound like you actually have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:God's love is expressed in many ways, and being just doesn't take away from His love. Your view of love actually negates His justice. You want God to be like a human judge who shows pity on the serial killer and lets him go out of emotional appeal, spitting in the face of his victims and their families in the process.
But hey, what can I do. He's right and this is what he wanted. I guess he loved everyone...except the billions of people I'll be seeing the future.
quote:He creates people, and those people act according to their natural desires to rebel. He also saves people out of that, and adopts them as His sons and daughters.
God just likes creating enemies I guess. Lots and lots of them. Must be a roguelike universe.
You keep speaking like God forces people to be this way. He doesn't.
quote:You don't even have an objective standard for what being a "good person" is. Your desire for being "good" seems to be the ultimate goal, and growing toward that over a lifetime. What you don't seem to get is that "being good" has to be a judgement based on an actual standard of goodness, which you haven't provided, nor justified. You also have to justify why that standard must be what it is, rather than an arbitrary standard based on personal preferences.
I mean hell I would think of it as a matter of being born ignorant and learning how to be better over a lifetime, multiple really, in the hopes that in your older age you can be a good person.
But nah, accepting dogma about an old arse collection of books that were chosen by men and believing in human sacrifice 2000 years ago as the most important thing must be the real answer. Everything else is just a path to hell!
Perhaps you should take some time to explain what you think is the right path in this life and why it is the right path.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:42 pm to Boom33
quote:I'm distinguishing between first and second causes. You are referring to God murdering Himself when that's not the case. God is the first cause, but not the one murdering anyone. The Jews and Romans were the ones who wound up murdering Jesus as second causes. God did not perform murder, though.
What you describe with Jesus was murder.
What Jesus did was willingly allow Himself to be murdered as a sacrifice for sin, since the murder was merely the means of His death, but His death was what accomplished the payment of the sin-debt.
quote:Reject it at your own peril, but that's what God has taught from His own word.
Once again, you go on about debts that do not exist. I'm not accepting your dogma no matter how much you push it.
quote:You go on about double standards and then won't do the thing you are demanding of me? You want me to justify what I'm saying while refusing to justify what you're saying.
I don't have to do anything.
quote:You have not done so, because you have not been judged by Him at your death.
I've already stood before God, so obviously this can't be true.
quote:Again, I'm telling you what God commands. You can reject it at your own peril if you wish, but you will be held accountable for it by God, not by me.
No, you are telling me I must bow down to your dogmatic view of God which is completely different.
quote:God does not lie, nor can He. Your ignorance of the Bible and its own hermeneutic does not mean He lies.
He lies multiple times in the bible in addition to using lies to his own ends. Even instructs others to lie in order to achieve his apparent goals.
quote:You sound like the Muslim who claims he doesn't deny the God of the Bible, while rejecting Jesus as God. Such a rejection fundamentally rejects the God of the Bible, since Jesus is God in the Bible.
And once again I do not deny God, I deny the bullshite you claim about God.
You reject God. Period. There is no other god.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:56 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You reject God's claims about Himself. These are not my unique and made-up beliefs that originated from my own mind.
Again, this is just dogma. It's impossible to have meaningful conversation with you because you believe everyone must have accepted the same dogma you have.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:59 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'm distinguishing between first and second causes. You are referring to God murdering Himself when that's not the case. God is the first cause, but not the one murdering anyone. The Jews and Romans were the ones who wound up murdering Jesus as second causes. God did not perform murder, though.
What Jesus did was willingly allow Himself to be murdered as a sacrifice for sin, since the murder was merely the means of His death, but His death was what accomplished the payment of the sin-debt.
Dogma
quote:
Reject it at your own peril, but that's what God has taught from His own word.
dogma
quote:
You go on about double standards and then won't do the thing you are demanding of me? You want me to justify what I'm saying while refusing to justify what you're saying.
I didn't demand anything of you. I specifically told you I wasn't really interested in debating with you. You were the one who had to tell me I was going to hell and all that other bullshite.
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You have not done so, because you have not been judged by Him at your death.
dogma
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Again, I'm telling you what God commands. You can reject it at your own peril if you wish, but you will be held accountable for it by God, not by me.
dogma
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God does not lie, nor can He. Your ignorance of the Bible and its own hermeneutic does not mean He lies.
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You sound like the Muslim who claims he doesn't deny the God of the Bible, while rejecting Jesus as God. Such a rejection fundamentally rejects the God of the Bible, since Jesus is God in the Bible.
You reject God. Period. There is no other god.
dogma
Posted on 8/18/26 at 3:59 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What it also doesn't do is pretend religious neutrality while functionally actively promoting secular humanism by allowing non-religious ideologies from having their say in the public marketplace of ideas while excluding Christians simply due to our religious status.
I'm just asking for clarification. Are you saying that the quote above does or does not impose limitations on adherents of other religions that would not be imposed on Christians?
For example, would Mooslims be barred from holding office, or to flip that around, would someone have to be a professing Christian in order to hold office?
If not, then I don't understand what you're advocating for other than an empty phrase.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 4:51 pm to Boom33
quote:You don't think you'll be accountable to God, because you deny that He exists. You may embrace a false view of God (or another god or deity entirely), but then again, you haven't really said what you believe about anything, other than you reject biblical Christianity.
I've never once said or indicated I wouldn't be accountable for what I do.
quote:1. All people will be held accountable for what they do in this life. The difference is that such accountability looks different for the saved vs. the unsaved. The unsaved will face God's wrath in Hell for eternity. The saved will have greater or lesser blessings in Heaven; everyone will have a full cup, but each cup may be different in size in Heaven.
YOU are the one who is trying to tell me I won't be held accountable for what I do as long as I buy into your snake oil.
YOU are the one who fears being held accountable for what you've done.
YOU are the one who demands a whipping boy.
2. I do not fear being held accountable, because the Christian message is that if you trust in Jesus by faith, you are no longer condemned. I'm no longer condemned, so I obey out of thankfulness, not fear.
3. I don't know what you mean by this unless you're saying that Jesus is a whipping boy. If so, I demand nothing. I acknowledge what God demands, which is that justice demands payment for sin, and only the blood of God, Himself, is of sufficient value to redeem mankind from the guilt of sin.
quote:Not in that analogy, though. If you want to go back to federal representation, we'll need to go to another analogy, like being born into a nation engaged in warfare because of the actions of its leaders. I'm specifically focusing on your actual sins in the speeding analogy. And really, I was only mentioning it to help you understand the principle of substitutionary atonement: paying the debt of another.
No, you claim I was guilty of speeding before I even got into the car.
quote:It's not about joining anything, but believing what God, Himself, has said. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. That includes you: you will not go to the Father unless you submit to the Son, and look to Him by faith to forgive you.
And that I will get that ticket no matter what unless I join your religion and dogma.
quote:See above: not in the scenario I gave about speeding. You're confusing analogies. With that said, in God's eyes, you have actually broken the speed laws.
You claim that it doesn't matter if I slow down or what speed I do. You tell me that even if I drive exactly the speed limit, I'm getting that ticket.
quote:.Again, you misunderstand. In the scenario I'm talking about, the guy going 90 mph still gets a ticket and has a fine leveled against him. The difference is that someone else comes in and pays that fine for him.
And then you tell me the guy doing 90mph doesn't get a ticket at all, because you murdered some dude 2000 years ago and he paid the ticket for you
However, even those with paid fines are supposed to obey the speed limit, and are commanded to do so by the one paying the fines. And if you continue to speed without remorse and care, then that's a sign that you never had your ticket paid for in the first place.
quote:Whatever it is you believe is the lie. You have deceived yourself--or have been deceived by Satan--to the point of rejecting the only means to eternal life.
It's all lies and manipulation.
quote:The analogy doesn't exactly fit for being born into sin, because it isn't meant to. It's meant to talk to how it isn't unfair for a ruler to pardon one criminal but not all criminals, which is what you were talking about in terms of allowing billions of people to die and burn in Hell without a chance for pardon. To talk about imputed guilt based on federal representation, I'd point back to the analogy of warfare, where everyone born into a country at war is considered to be an enemy of their enemies, even if they had not personally done anything to deserve it. Their guilt is based on their federal representative(s).
Did the ruler didn't create all those people as criminals from the start and then decided to torture and burn them for eternity for his actions.
That's what you claim God does. That is evil.
quote:He does not. Your interpretation of what constitutes a lie and so on is the problem here. For one, He is allowed to alter outcomes based on other factors, such as His own forgiveness and long-suffering. For another, what is intended in the original promise can be better understood by the eventual outcome, such as Adam "dying" on the day he sins is his beginning to die (becoming able to die and his body deteriorating until eventual death). You can't assume a lie or contradiction when one is not necessary.
In the bible, God lies. He instructs other people to lie. He murders, he instructs people to murder.
Hell, you can't even make it more than 3 chapters in the bible before God tells the first lie to Adam.
quote:Your assumption is still incorrect, and it is evident by the example you provided. You assume all people are innocent, and therefore if God condemns anyone, He is an evil monster. You then amplify that problem by saying God is condemning billions of innocent people and only saving a relative few. That's not what is being proposed, though. No one is innocent. It's more like a nation filled with enemies, and when a ruler eventually conquers it, he pardons some and not others, though none technically "deserve" pardons or mercy.
You're asking me to concentrate on the left hand while ignoring the right hand.
And the simple fact remains that according to you, God has created about 99% of humans to burn in hell for eternity.
It's like someone robbing you for $20 and giving $1 back and you telling me how good a person was because they gave you the $1.
Only a sick frick would create billions of humans just so he could torture them.
Your inability to understand the theology of original sin is I think what's at the heart of your objection here.
Also, when it comes to your condemnation of God's actions, you still haven't justified your moral standard to make such a statement.
quote:You assume it's "blind" acceptance. It isn't. It's acceptance based on claims that comport with reality.
Dogma and the requirement of accepting a book is God's word without question.
You aren't rational at all. Being rational doesn't start with blind acceptance.
quote:Then correct me. You've offered nothing here but criticisms and are leaving me to just guess about your presuppositions. We all have presuppositions and no one is neutral, not even you. However, I've engaged with enough people of differing religions and ideologies that I know that you are irrational in whatever it is you actually believe. You'll need to justify what is morally "good" and "evil", for instance, rather than just condemning God against an unstated standard.
You don't even know my worldview but that's not going to stop you from making claims right? You'll just assume whatever makes you happiest and is least threatening to your dogmatic "reasoning".
quote:Yes, God is condemning a lot more criminals right now. That's not a logical problem, but apparently that's an emotional one for you.
Still burning the frick outta many more people.
quote:Whatever the number is, you have not provided reasoning for why such a thing is unjust or immoral. You've only arbitrarily (so far) stated that it's evil for God to condemn the sinful.
Dogma has a definition. And its simple math that like 99% of humans who walked this earth are burning in hell according to your claims.
Posted on 8/18/26 at 5:19 pm to Boom33
quote:I don't think you get it. If I put an ad in the paper for a free millions dollars to be given to anyone who shows up and holds out their hands to receive it, I'm not actually putting any requirements on it other than to believe the offer enough to receive the gift. I'm not asking for anything in return but your acceptance. Even in that scenario, you would have to physically have to go to where I am to receive the money, but here and now, the gospel is given to you so that all you have to do is read these words and trust that Jesus has died to pay for your sins, and you will receive payment for your sins. The only requirement is for you to believe it. So in a sense, that's more "free" than you driving a few miles down the road to pick up a million dollars.
I do have to do things to earn it. If it was free gift to everyone, then nobody would have to do anything to get it. You instead have requirements to receive this "free" gift.
Because it's marketing bullshite.
You simply don't believe the offer is genuine and therefore don't accept it.
Going back to the ruler and the pardon scenario: if a King sent a message to a prison saying he'll be showing up later that day to pardon anyone who stands before him and says they are sorry for their crimes, then you would be the prisoner who doesn't show up because you believe the offer is not true, that there is no king, and if there was a king, that he would be cruel for not simply making a decree to release all the prisoners. What you are missing is that if you just believe the offer and show up to receive it, you will be pardoned. That's not a problem with God, but with you.
quote:You use "dogma" as if it's a bad word. Dogma is just authoritative teaching, particularly on religious or moral issues.
Your basis for objectional truth is just the blind acceptance that the bible is the word of God and so forth. That is DOGMA, not objectional truth.
You clearly have some set principles you live by and some truths you think are true. If have your own dogmas, whatever they are.
That aside, I'm speaking about philosophy at this point. Philosophically speaking, you have to ground truth in something beyond arbitrary thought originating in the minds of people. You haven't grounded truth--moral truth or otherwise--in anything, and you really can't. I'm curious what you ground it in, because so far, you have made a lot of comments about God and certain actions being "evil", but haven't provided a basis for such a statement beyond your mere opinion.
quote:God's word is not God, but it's not contrary to God, because His word reflects His mind and His commands. While His words are not Him, His words represent Him so much that to believe His words is to believe Him. I'm not worshiping His words, but I'm worshipping Him and obeying Him by obeying His words. On the other hand, you cannot truly worship Him rightly without His words, because it's in His words that He reveals how He wants to be worshipped.
You've replaced God with a book. Of which has to be accepted blindly, aka dogma.
See above for my response to blind acceptance and "dogma".
quote:What we are discussing is truth claims. So far, I'm offering a positive reason for truth claims that I believe are true, and you are just saying "nuh uh". You aren't providing any alternative to this point, not are you justifying your criticisms in anything beyond your personal opinion.
You can't even remotely begin to debate without the dogma. Everything you say is based on your dogma and blind acceptance. Of which you likely think is a strength you're so ate up with it.
quote:If you reject the one and true God, then you are not much different from an atheist. However, since you now make that claim, I won't call you an atheist any longer. I would appreciate you explaining what you actually believe, unless you are afraid to have that picked apart to show why your beliefs are still not grounded in truth.
I'm not an atheist dumbass.
quote:What is your justification for those standards if not your own arbitrary preference?
I hold myself to higher standards than you, not lower.
quote:That's just your own personal opinion. Or, dare I say, it's your own personal dogma. It's just contrary to mine.
This is just dogma, and it's stupid.
quote:God didn't "make" everyone to be sinners, but He does count each person as guilty of Adam's sin based on a decision to have a federal representative. If Adam had obeyed, all his children would be born with a righteous disposition and imputed righteousness rather than mere innocence. As it stands, it is guilt and sin that we have, because Adam failed. That's precisely why Jesus became a man, obeyed the law perfectly, and died in our place.
The claim is God made everyone to be sinners, and they need to believe in the death of Jesus to be saved.
quote:If God would arbitrarily forgive people, He would be unjust. I said it previously, but it would be like a judge that forgives a mass murderer and sets them free "just because". It would be a denial of justice, and such a judge would deserve castigation rather than praise.
Because apparently God can't just forgive people. Or even just recognize that according to you, he created them that way, knowing full well the entire time how they would be, and that he would just burn and torture them for recognizing.
Oh but then he came to earth and was killed so that he could forgive SOME people, so long as they worship human sacrifice.
As was stated previously, God can create as He sees fit, and He does not owe anyone anything good in this life. Just like a potter can create a pot to use for target practice, God can create a person to show His power in, and show His mercy towards others.
I think I know what's going on here: you assume all people are innocent and deserve good things in this life (and even some life to come, if you believe that even exists), and that if there were a God, He would owe all people those good things, or at least a chance to earn those good things through good works.
You know what? All religions and ideologies in this world emphasize "good works" of some kind as their basis of "salvation", whatever that looks like. Everyone thinks that good things come to good people, and goodness is measured by scales being tipped to one side with arbitrary requirements for what "good" even means. Any alteration to this thinking is met with calls of unfairness.
Christianity is not a works-based religion. Works are involved, for sure, but not as the basis for being right with God. We cannot lift ourselves up by our own boot straps, but we must rely on God to save us, because we can't do enough good works to overcome the evil we do.
Whatever it is you believe, you cannot be saved apart from Jesus Christ.
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