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re: Paper: Did the Universe simulate itself into existence?

Posted on 9/23/21 at 6:55 am to
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 6:55 am to
quote:

One of the struggles is also arbitrarily making up a creator out of thin air since we don't understand our origins.


Yep

But, I don't want to go farther than that and turn this into a pure religion thread
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 6:59 am to
quote:

These leading “scientific” theories are sounding more and more like belief in magic. Just more layers of overly complex magic.


This is a good time to point out that even those proposing the idea in the OP wouldn't tell you that it IS the answer. They're basically saying, "we think this is worth examining". Also, it's not like this is some mass gather of all people studying the subject. There are MANY competing ideas out there right now. ALL of which have yet to be tested and most of which never will be.

As to "layers of magic". Honestly, ANYTHING that explains almost any aspect of how the universe will seem like magic to humans.

Quantum Physics defies all human understanding other than the fact that it works. Even the people who "understand" it the best among all of us will tell you that what is going on isn't something their brains can really "visualize". It just is.
Posted by QboveTopSecret
America
Member since Feb 2018
3473 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 7:18 am to


For Brahmans learned in the Vedas, and teaching truly their doctrines, explain such passages as the following as intending the production of the chief principle (Pradhana):

"There was neither day nor night, nor sky nor earth, nor darkness nor light, nor any other thing, save only One, inapprehensible by intellect, or That which is Brahma and Puman (spirit) and Pradhana (matter)."

The two forms which are other than the essence of unmodified Vi??u, are Pradhana (matter) and Puru?a (spirit); and his other form, by which those two are connected or separated, is called Kala (time).

The simulation theory has been known and taught for thousands of years.

The Kybalion: A Study of the Hermetic Philosophy of Ancient Egypt and Greece) is a book originally published in 1908
Posted by BayBengal9
Bay St. Louis, MS
Member since Nov 2019
4171 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 7:28 am to
I wish Democrats could simulate themselves into reality.
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:08 am to
quote:

One of the struggles finite reasoning creatures have is with a being that had no beginnings and therefore can’t be explained by said finite creatures.


I did a deep dive into this some 15+ years ago and definitely a little mind boggling but a good start is Einstein's theory of Special realitivity. E=mc2. If you break up this formula, time is a parameter. The interesting part is that time=0 at the speed of light. If that is assumed correct, there are very interesting implications.
-If time can equal 0, then time as we understand it is not fundamental to existence and is an emergent quality of this universe.
-Nothing exists at the speed of light? Not true. Energy exists at the speed of light...such as photons. Photons exist in a realm without time yet also interact within our universe which does contain time.
-If time does not exist at the speed of light, then does a single photon of light exist everywhere and everytime within this universe.
-other implications as well if you think about it long enough.

It has been a long time since I looked at it and details are foggy now but anyone interested can do their own homework. Interesting and tt can make you look at things differently.
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1036 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:12 am to
You have one of two possible answers for the origin of the universe.

1. The universe before existed, before anything existed, created itself and all life within it.

2. The universe has a cause or creator.

To side with the first possibility you have to dig deep into your bag of fictional make pretend physics to even attempt to explain how from the void of absolute nothingness the universe decided to create itself. Again before the universe was even a thing.

The second is grounded in scientific theory and numerous logical arguments. It’s cause and effect just like everything else in the natural universe. The Big Bang theory supports the Kalam cosmological argument.

It’s not hard bass tiger. What makes it difficult for people is when you exclude God as a possibility then you find yourself trying to explain it using laughably stupid alternatives
Posted by xxTIMMYxx
Member since Aug 2019
17562 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:17 am to
Higher being god at work

Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:18 am to
quote:

Quantum Physics defies all human understanding other than the fact that it works.


For me, the biggest question about the Quantum world is the actual role of consciousness in triggering collapse. Is it essential or not? If yes, consciousness may be everything. I doubt we will ever know with certainly but I suspect the answer is yes.

From the outside, it seems some really weird things going on with time/cause/effect as well.



Posted by xxTIMMYxx
Member since Aug 2019
17562 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:20 am to
The double slit experiment certainly points to consciousness being at the center of everything
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:23 am to
quote:

You have one of two possible answers for the origin of the universe.

1. The universe before existed, before anything existed, created itself and all life within it.

2. The universe has a cause or creator.

Even if these were the only 2 possibilities(they aren't), far too many people assume #2 would be proof of God or God of the Bible.

Which, obviously, it isn't.
quote:


The second is grounded in scientific theory and numerous logical arguments. It’s cause and effect just like everything else in the natural universe.
No it isn't. It just moves back the "cause" by one step and requires you have ANOTHER cause still yet unexplained.

quote:


It’s not hard bass tiger. What makes it difficult for people is when you exclude God as a possibility
There it is. You make the error that #2 would be "God". That's nothing but a false logic leap
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:27 am to
quote:



For me, the biggest question about the Quantum world is the actual role of consciousness in triggering collapse. Is it essential or not?
That idea is near universally rejected at this point and rightly so.

quote:

From the outside, it seems some really weird things going on with time/cause/effect as well.

Well, they are weird as frick from our perspective.

But just remember, it isn't as if our senses or brains were designed with a need to comprehend the quantum world. Our brains can't even see all the wavelengths of light around us. We aren't very good at comprehending distances much greater than spear throwing distance. Everything after that is just numbers on paper for the most part. We "understand" it. But, go ask 50 people to walk a mile in a given direction one at a time. You'll get 50 WILDLY different results. But, if you ask 50 people to walk 100 yards, they'll end up practically on top of each other.
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:29 am to
quote:

The double slit experiment certainly points to consciousness being at the center of everything

It does, but that's just a human centered conceit.

For real brain melting, look up the double slit quantum eraser.

At least with the double slit, you get a wave pattern when measuring before the particles hit the wall.

With quantum eraser, you get a wave patter on the wall even if your measurement takes place AFTER the particles hit the wall.

In other words, somehow, the particles "know" you're going to measure.

Which, of course, is silly. What it really means is that the quantum world's attachment to time is beyond human understanding at the moment.
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:31 am to
quote:

The double slit experiment certainly points to consciousness being at the center of everything


If I had to make a bet, my money would be on consciousness is everything and this universe is emergent from consciousness.

We have multitude of consciousness within this universe but what is the origin of those consciousnesses? Back to the single photon that exists everywhere/everytime. A single consciousness? A creator? A God?
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:35 am to
quote:

If I had to make a bet, my money would be on consciousness is everything and this universe is emergent from consciousness.

Meh

I think it is very good to remember that the primary reason our brains go to such human centered answers is because our brains are literally just several thousand years removed from not even knowing that you could move shite easier on wheels.

quote:

We have multitude of consciousness within this universe but what is the origin of those consciousnesses? Back to the single photon that exists everywhere/everytime. A single consciousness? A creator? A God?
Another thing humans should seriously contemplate is that while the universe seems big.........TO US............that doesn't actually mean it's big.

As to the word "God". If there were a race of beings, on a plane of existence outside our universe that used our universe like a toy, is the word "God" really applicable? Their power would be "Godlike" to us...........but that would really be the only similarity to our use of the word.
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:41 am to
quote:

That idea is near universally rejected at this point and rightly so.


I would agree amongst the masses of the scientific world but not amongst the handful of original thinkers devoted to the topic. And clearly no conclusive proof either way. Sort of like the belief that consciousness is an emergent quality of the mind. Sounds good as a stock answer but lets see someone prove it. And if anything, the foundational understanding of the quantum world seems in constant flux.
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:43 am to
quote:


I would agree amongst the masses of the scientific world but not amongst the handful of original thinkers devoted to the topic
I'd need to know what you mean by "handful of original thinkers".

quote:

And clearly no conclusive proof either way.
Obviously

quote:

Sort of like the belief that consciousness is an emergent quality of the mind. Sounds good as a stock answer but lets see someone prove it.
May never get proven. We probably will never prove EVERYTHING.
quote:

And if anything, the foundational understanding of the quantum world seems in constant flux.
Well, we do have much to learn about the quantum world. But what we already know is fricking completely at odds with what our human brains "want" to be true.
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:49 am to
quote:

As to the word "God". If there were a race of beings, on a plane of existence outside our universe that used our universe like a toy, is the word "God" really applicable? Their power would be "Godlike" to us...........but that would really be the only similarity to our use of the word.


We could easily discuss this all day long but there are no answers. All we have are our opinions and beliefs based on some incomplete knowledge. Anyone who claims there is no God or that there is a God is simply stating their belief and neither can prove their belief. So to each their own.
Posted by SuperDad
Member since Sep 2021
191 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 8:55 am to
quote:



We could easily discuss this all day long but there are no answers.
Well, there are probably tons of answers, just not ones we have access to with our current level of technology. And then, there are likely things we can never know.

quote:

All we have are our opinions and beliefs based on some incomplete knowledge
Meh. Obviously, everyone can have an opinion but really, any "opinions" beyond our ability to even understand should be VERRRRRRY soft opinions.

quote:

Anyone who claims there is no God or that there is a God is simply stating their belief
Correct.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45447 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 9:07 am to
quote:

One of the struggles is also arbitrarily making up a creator out of thin air since we don't understand our origins.
I agree with you. It’s why I worship the one true God rather than make up explanations that suit my fancy or attempt to justify rebellion against Him.
Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
38518 posts
Posted on 9/23/21 at 9:08 am to
quote:

As such, the universe “self-actualizes” itself into existence, relying on underlying algorithms and a rule they call “the principle of efficient language.”


And the essence of "language", is, words. I.e., "in the *beginning* was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God".

No doubt we've "heard this before", TP. Likely an infinite number of times, in an infinite number of evolutionary, sub-Entity scenarios, via infinitely diverse 'Religious'/Spiritual "language" forms.

But ultimately, I think that the sub-Entities' (subjective) preference and choice becomes the final arbiter of their Reality. Quantum Physics moves toward verifying this. This Universal Axiom (?) makes both Worldly (Empirical/Darwinian) and Spiritual (Moral) sense. Especially as given the Spiritual Paradigm basically becomes one of Morality. Therein, the ultimate and preferred, chosen Reality of a particular individual, becomes a moral choice as to either acknowledge/validate the (potential?) existence of God, and worship such as being holy...or...simply acknowledge that there is no innate 'Morality' in a Reality that springs from a Base with no essential Spiritual essence. A dangerous and painful belief, IMO.

The Darwinian (materialistic) Paradigm is based on a competition for survival and prosperity, with blatant disrespect via death, for weakness. The God/Spiritual Paradigm is based on Love ("God IS Love"); Love - IMO - being defined as an 'appreciation' of and respect for ALL of Creation as being a holy manifestation of Perfect Love. And the Mercy over 'Justice' (earned/deserved Karma) therein.

If Love exists (it does), then Love's Opposite (competitive-based disunity) must also exist (it does, and kicks our asses daily). And if said Love's Opposite manifest in sub-Entity form, then the ultimate manifestation of 'Evil'...would be an entity that manifest with an ultimate Value of competition-based Self-survival and prosperity. Such an 'Entity' is perfectly described as the Lucifer of Biblical lore - the "shining angel" - that even dared to value itself such that it imagined a valid competition with God for equal egoic status.

I don't think there will ever be a 'proof' of God, minus the equal Worldly choice for a no-God, in this Realm. For if God (assuming such exists) were to create a Humanity destined to worship/value It (as though it's action sprang from an Egoic desire to be worshipped, like Lucifer's ultimate Value), then Lucifer's accusation that God was self-serving and unworthy of ultimate worship/reverence...would hold true. On that basis, God would be forced by 'The Word' to create a 'Simulation' in a way that the ultimate CHOICE which would determine the fate/reality of an individual, MUST be uncoerced. No 'carrot or stick'; just the whole Truth. The bases for such a essential choice - God or no god - would have to be a truly equal and "open proposition" for BOTH alternative choices/realities.

I know. You do this to me every time. But I also know that you understand this philosophical speculation. I am always open and hopeful for truthful critique; and elated at the idea of seeing my own flaws, that I might move up.

Bottom line: Whatever it is that is the Source of our being ("I know that I am"/Descartes) will - like all choice-based scenarios - be they Wordly/no god or Spiritual/God-based - will certainly define and color the lens through which we view our reality. What we believe, determines what we feel. And Feeling is everything. Will be interesting to see if there is the possibility for sub-Entitys to maintain and serve the idea of Love, outside of the belief in God. And the Idea that ALL people are holy 'children of God', and therein worthy of due respect (at least until they make an educated choice to knowingly serve Self/Evil). And not just feelingless matter manifestations destined to be feeling-less matter mulch. I suspect that the 'anti-Christ scenario will define and answer that, in short order. And we'll likely reap the dramatic and extreme (good and 'bad') consequences of our chosen beliefs, pretty quick. And this issue will be settled. At least in this particular Parallel Universe, as we all choose, and move on to the consequence of our belief/choice. One Paradigm is likely headed for a 'Fermi Paradox' scenario, the other, 'Heaven'.

It is a big 'game'. Real big! Thank you Lord.

Be well.
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