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“Never Forget the Real Reason Russia Went to War…”

Posted on 2/18/23 at 8:45 am
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
17738 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 8:45 am
I am frankly shocked such a dissenting op-ed appears on a MSM platform such as Newsweek.

I know it probably is a delusional hope, but perhaps this is a sign that actual debate about continuing to pour money into the kleptocratic rat-hole in Eastern Europe will be forthcoming.


Never Forget the Real Reason Russia Went to War…


Public support for NATO's proxy war in Ukraine rests upon three frequently repeated assumptions: Russia's invasion was unexpected and unprovoked, Ukraine is a unified, democratic state, and Ukraine will win the war. Based on widely available public information, it is increasingly self-evident that all three of these assumptions are flawed. As the anniversary of the start of the war approaches, we intend discuss precisely why these views have become dangerously misleading, starting with the conclusion that Russia's behavior was somehow surprising.

Many well-informed observers agree that as the Cold War was ending, the Western powers assured the Soviet Union that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe, and that this promise was subsequently broken. In February 1990, Secretary of State James Baker met with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to discuss the reunification of Germany. Gorbachev noted that, "It goes without saying that a broadening of the NATO zone is unacceptable," and Baker responded: "We agree with that."

Russian concerns were longstanding and well understood in Washington. Our ambassadors are the individuals best equipped to understand, analyze, and explain the motives and intentions of foreign governments. For three generations, American ambassadors to Moscow delivered clear and consistent warnings against expanding NATO into Russia's traditional sphere of influence.

Ambassador George Kennan joined the Foreign Service in 1925. He was America's ambassador in Moscow during the Truman administration and an architect of the Containment policy that contributed to ending the Cold War. In 1948 he wrote that "no Russian government would accept Ukrainian independence," and that any attempt to create an independent Ukrainian state would be "artificial and destructive."

Alarmed by NATO expansion in 1998, Kennan told New York Times columnist Tom Friedman that, "I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely.....I think it is a tragic mistake." He considered it extremely unwise to ask former communist nations to choose between NATO and Russia. In a letter to the State Department he wrote, "Nowhere does forcing this choice appear more portentous and pregnant with fateful consequences than in the case of Ukraine."

Ambassador Jack Matlock was a career Foreign Service officer with many years of experience in Russia when President Ronald Reagan named him ambassador to Moscow. Appearing before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee during the Bill Clinton administration he stated, "I consider the administration's recommendation to take new members into NATO at this time misguided. If it should be approved by the United States Senate, it may well go down in history as the most profound strategic blunder made since the end of the Cold War....it could well encourage a chain of events producing the most serious security threat to this nation since the Soviet Union collapsed."

Ambassador William J. Burns was the most distinguished Foreign Service officer of his generation and now serves as director of the CIA. While serving as ambassador to Moscow during the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations he advised that "NATO enlargement, particularly the Ukraine, remains an emotional and neuralgic issue for Russia. Strategic policy considerations also underlie a strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. Regarding Ukraine these concerns include fears that the issue could spilt the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."

In a memo to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Burns wrote, "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all red lines for the Russian elite (not just Russian President Vladimir Putin). In more than two-and-a-half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests."

Nevertheless, convinced that a greatly weakened Russia could not oppose expanding Western influence, NATO's political leaders continued to promote Ukrainian entry into the alliance. Under strong American pressure, NATO's secretary general announced in 2008 that Ukraine would eventually join the alliance. In 2014 NATO actively supported the Maidan Uprising which overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian, elected president Viktor Yanukovych and replaced him with a pro-European, pro-NATO government.

Right up until the outbreak of the current war on Feb. 24, 2022, the Western powers consistently rejected Russian calls for a neutral Ukraine. Instead, the alliance repeatedly reconfirmed Ukraine's right to join NATO and committed itself to ever deeper security assistance, defense planning and intelligence sharing with Kiev.

To explain Putin's motives is not to justify his actions. Yet without a clear- eyed understanding of why Russia invaded Ukraine, we have little hope of negotiating an end to this conflict.

Posted by KAGTASTIC
Member since Feb 2022
7989 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 8:54 am to
TLDR....was it "unprovoked" like Heels Up said it was??

Newsweek is weird. For every so many complete lack of morals anti-American articles, they'll have a solid Right article sneak by as a teaser to keep some credence.
Posted by timdonaghyswhistle
Member since Jul 2018
16303 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 8:59 am to
They’ve already achieved the spoils they desired.

Tossing a bone of admission is not a big deal.
Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
79701 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:00 am to
quote:

we have little hope of negotiating an end to this conflict.


Nobody wants to negotiate an end to this conflict.

Putin went to war because the Democrat Party has been poking him in the chest for the past 10 years. He decided to get even by going after their laundromat. Now, they’ve adjusted a bit and found an even better way to grift money there by sending Ukraine “aid”.
Posted by jonnyanony
Member since Nov 2020
9966 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:04 am to
I think the problem with this argument is it suggests that one country has an inherent right to dictate how another sovereign country runs their country.

Russia has had NATO on it's doorstep for twenty+ years. Now, because of the Ukraine endeavor they have two more NATO members coming, one of them also at their doorstep.

I fail to believe Russia didn't account for this possibility. Which means this is about Ukraine, and not NATO at large.
Posted by ReeseBobby
Comanche TX
Member since Oct 2021
186 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:04 am to
Nato expanding hurts Russias feelings. Oh nos poor Russia. Russias a rotting carcass of a civilization akin to the last years of the Ottoman Empire. Russia should form its own alliance organization but of course nobody not named Belarus would join. Perhaps fellow pariah states DPRK and Iran.
Posted by Rip Torn
Member since Mar 2020
2286 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:10 am to
The whole argument is silly. Some on this board fail to realize you can not support either side and that ultimately both can be guilty of corruption. It’s odd how many criticize Zelenskyy and the US for corruption yet somehow believe Putin got his billions through hard work and keen business skills. It’s nearly comical lol. I forgot he is fighting Nazis
Posted by jonnyanony
Member since Nov 2020
9966 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:12 am to
It is possible to believe both sides are awful, corrupt nations and still take the stand that invasions are unacceptable.
Posted by KAGTASTIC
Member since Feb 2022
7989 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:14 am to
quote:

Putin went to war because the Democrat Party has been poking him in the chest for the past 10 years.

What I don't get, other than nefarious grifting, is how people ignore how Putin has been warning against all of this for a long time now, and people are upset that he did what he said he would if lines were crossed.

Also, how the Obama admin let him take Crimea, and now it's a big deal by the same people for doing what he has already done with their approval. Just because Trump messed with their plans?

I couldn't care less anymore about Ukraine. Just care about stoping our money going there. Strike a deal with Russia that gives them some of the land the want, stops NATO into Ukraine, move the pro-russians into the new Russian territory and pro Ukrainians into the Ukraine borders. This garbage needs to end.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65113 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:16 am to
quote:

Russia has had NATO on it's doorstep for twenty+ years. Now, because of the Ukraine endeavor they have two more NATO members coming, one of them also at their doorstep.



This.

Putin is not an idiot. He had to know that an invasion of Ukraine would have brought more than one nation in the region closer to NATO, if not into the organization. Which tells me it wasn't so much about NATO expanding into more countries on Russia's doorstep, but the inclusion of one country in particular that he did not want: Ukraine. The reason being? He wants Ukraine incorporated back into Russia.
Posted by SquaringCircles
Member since Sep 2021
1463 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:16 am to
This is obviously the case. So tired of the “US v. crazy man” framing of our foreign policy misadventures. Same as it ever was. They’re playing chess. You’re the pawn.
Posted by KAGTASTIC
Member since Feb 2022
7989 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:18 am to
Ohhhh and random question if anyone knows...any truth the Zelensky only speaking Russian his whole life until he ran/became president of Ukraine? Was he a part of the pro-russian Ukraine faction?

Don't understand how that happens, but heard it and just looking to clear that up.
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
39367 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:29 am to
This “sphere of influence” is such bullshite! Russia does not get a sphere to influence, guaranteed, for all eternity. Just as the Roman Empire eventually lost theirs, so is Russia losing theirs.

At one time Belgium was in the French sphere. Should it remain so? The United States has suffered bitter enemies to establish vassal states within a hundred miles of our borders. Russia’s right to boss around its neighbors is based solely on their military might. There is no other justification for it.

I’m sure we made all kinds of promises to Gorbachev to get the USSR to demilitarize. Similar promises were made to Genghis Khan to convince him not to pillage cities. No one intends to keep such promises once the bully’s strength ebbs.
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
39367 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:42 am to
quote:

Putin is not an idiot. He had to know that an invasion of Ukraine would have brought more than one nation in the region closer to NATO, if not into the organization. Which tells me it wasn't so much about NATO expanding into more countries on Russia's doorstep, but the inclusion of one country in particular that he did not want: Ukraine. The reason being? He wants Ukraine incorporated back into Russia.

I agree that it was more about Ukraine, in particular, but I object to your implication that how this played out was apparent ahead of time. It was not. Putin did not have to be “an idiot” to think that he could intimidate Europe into acquiescence by threatening their energy supplies. This board was filled with opinions, back in November, that Europe was going to suffer mass deaths from freezing This winter. It turns out they were able to win the energy war. And next winter will be easier still.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
260684 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:44 am to
quote:

This “sphere of influence” is such bullshite! Russia does not get a sphere to influence, guaranteed, for all eternity


quote:

Like the Monroe Doctrine?
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
65113 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:46 am to
quote:

Putin did not have to be “an idiot” to think that he could intimidate Europe into acquiescence by threatening their energy supplies. This board was filled with opinions, back in November, that Europe was going to suffer mass deaths from freezing This winter. It turns out they were able to win the energy war. And next winter will be easier still.


And this is why we let the war in Ukraine continue right here.

1. It weakens Russia's status in the region
2. It weakens Russia's military and drains their manpower pool
3. It makes Europe more reliant on U.S. energy
Posted by Zarkinletch416
Deep in the Heart of Texas
Member since Jan 2020
8389 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:47 am to
quote:

but perhaps this is a sign that actual debate about continuing to pour money into the kleptocratic rat-hole in Eastern Europe


Never happen. Obama and his democrat pals lit the fuse on that bomb we call Ukraine when they got their CIA pals to overthrow a duly elected pro-Russian President in 2014.

Fact. In February 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev left that meeting with Secretary of State James Baker with assurances NATO would not expand one inch east of Germany. The West (i.e.democrats et al.) broke that agreement, and now the world is on the brink of nuclear war. Creepy Joe Biden and NATO keep prodding Putin. Dmitry Medvedev says - hold my beer.

You would think after Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan disasters, the USA should have learned a lesson - nation-building is ugly, it's risky, and enormously expensive. Remind me again, how many Apache helicopters did we leave in Afghanistan? How much American blood is soaked in that ground at Kabul Airport?

This month marks the 33rd Anniversary of that agreement between the West and Russia (James Baker and Mikhail Gorbachev). Let's hope Vlad Putin is not a stickler for anniversaries.

There's your boy, democrats. The leader of the free world.
This post was edited on 2/19/23 at 12:30 pm
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
17738 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 9:56 am to
quote:

This “sphere of influence” is such bullshite!


Yes. The “spheres of influence” of other nations are to be solely determined by NATO and the United States into perpetuity, forever and ever amen.



Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48382 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 10:02 am to
quote:

we have little hope of negotiating an end to this conflict.


IMHO there is no hope for a negotiated end to this war. It is now a War to the Knife between Russia and the USA, with China in support of Russia.
Posted by Tigers2010a
Member since Jul 2021
3627 posts
Posted on 2/18/23 at 10:05 am to
Good article and good summary.
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