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re: Nebraska: Women overwhelmed with joy and in tears, after abortion ban bill fails
Posted on 4/30/23 at 7:53 pm to tigerbait3488
Posted on 4/30/23 at 7:53 pm to tigerbait3488
I’m sure all men here are gods gift to women
0
Posted on 4/30/23 at 7:59 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
My personal standards of “right/wrong” do not define societal morality. That is done by the critical mass of the members of the society. Yes, that changes with time and place.
But we are engaging in a debate, why does the "society at large" need to come into play with your personal right/wrong? It seems like that should be arbitrary.
And yes, I guess we would need to make the distinctions between morales and laws. Just because something is "law" does not therefor make it "right" or "moral".
But back on the topic. When do you personally find it to be "reasonable" to end a distinct human life? At what stage in their development to you "personally" find it acceptable?
I find it puzzling that I as someone who is pro-life, am often characterized and labeled as being some Bible Thumping backwards anti-science zealot. Yet no one of the pro-abprtion crowd can give me one defined demarcation of when a clustering of cells becomes a person, and when the same clustering is not? They will often give some ambiguous answer about sentience or reasoning, without giving a defined milestone or level of sentience or reasoning to meet that threshold. Yet, I, the anti-science guy, can very simply observe and determine that moment to be conception.
And if it is simply a matter of physical location (in the womb or out of the womb), then explain if it is reasonable to stab a baby minutes before birth, versus stabbing the same child minutes after birth. If you find both options reprehensible, then define the moment it is not reprehensible?
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 8:02 pm
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:04 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Per Merriam Webster
Capacity - the potential or suitability for holding, storing, or accommodating
How does a 4 week baby not meet that standard? At that point, it is an unique human being with a distinct DNA code that will never be replicated. With the capacity or potential to develop into a full grown human adult and nothing else.
You defined the not really relevant word but whatever. At four weeks the fetus just just started to develop a brain and it has a long ways to go before it fully develops
LINK
quote:
Within 4 weeks, the rudimentary structure known as the neural plate develops, which Gaither says is considered the precursor to the nervous system. “This plate elongates and folds on itself forming the neural tube — the cephalad portion of the tube becomes the brain, while the caudal portion elongates to eventually become the spinal cord,” she explains.
The neural tube continues to grow, but around week 6 or 7, Gaither says it closes, and the cephalad portion (aka the rudimentary brain) separates into three distinct parts: front brain, midbrain, and hindbrain.
It’s also during this time that neurons and synapses (connections) begin to develop in the spinal cord. These early connections allow the fetus to make its first movements.
quote:
By the end of the second trimester, Gaither says the fetal brain looks structurally much like the adult brain with the brain stem almost entirely developed.
But even then I don't know that we can say that it has consciousness. Hell I've read before that consciousness doesn't start to actually take hold until a while after birth but I'm not advocating for terminating babies after birth or even late term. When the brain forms seems a good point to pick a cutoff to me.
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 8:12 pm
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:10 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
You defined the not really relevant word but whatever. At four weeks the fetus just just started to develop a brain and it has a long ways to go before it fully develops
A human brain is not fully developed until their mid to late 20s. At what stage of brain development do you find it acceptable to exterminate that life?
You are the one bringing in arbitrary stages of life development to determine someone's right to live and value. So why can't you determine the moment it is acceptable or not acceptable to end that life? Or is it just some vague, ambitious spectrum that can shift as needed for convenience and depending on whatever the current cultural zeitgeist is at that moment in time?
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 8:11 pm
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:22 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
in a perfect world, legal rights would vest with consciousness/sapience,
Do they cease with loss of salience?
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:35 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
So you pick a number that enough people see as being “reasonable.” Ony a VERY tiny minority sees “6 weeks” as being that number.
Most people see it as 15 weeks…
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:47 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
A human brain is not fully developed until their mid to late 20s. At what stage of brain development do you find it acceptable to exterminate that life?
They are still conscious beings growing up which is what we are discussing.
quote:
You are the one bringing in arbitrary stages of life development to determine someone's right to live and value. So why can't you determine the moment it is acceptable or not acceptable to end that life? Or is it just some vague, ambitious spectrum that can shift as needed for convenience and depending on whatever the current cultural zeitgeist is at that moment in time?
The brain development isn't an arbitrary stage since it's the key focal point in consciousness.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:50 pm to DavidTheGnome
I personally think you’re still going to run into the philosophical quandary that we don’t really understand how consciousness manifests. We have some neural correlates we can lean on, but it’s one of the major problems of philosophy of mind for a reason and I don’t think it’s going to or should move the needle in this particular debate because of that.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:51 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Do they cease with loss of salience?
Essentially yes. If somebody is in a car accident for instance and is brain dead then yes their caretaker has the right to pull the tubes. Essentially we have a lifeless body on life support.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:53 pm to tigerbait3488
quote:The guys willing to do the deed with them....... abortion is their only out.
Not a good looking woman in the group
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:57 pm to LSU7096
quote:Ummmmm..... I'm no Nostradamus, but the guys making a baby with these wildebeest, aren't exactly going to be bringing a lot of cash to the table. These are the average fat, blonde whore you see with black guys. Trophy for him, LOL for everybody else.
Ho's be happy! They only have to keep the babies for men being entrapped!
Posted on 4/30/23 at 8:58 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
The brain development isn't an arbitrary stage since it's the key focal point in consciousness.
Again. You won't define or determine what the level of development is required to meet your threshold.
You say things like consciousness, yet won't determine when that occurs, and how we can determine it? Does a newborn infant have consciousness, and fully aware of its place in the universe? Can that infant reason?
How can we even get the legal question? (When is it OK to perform abortion), when we are unable to determine the moral question (when is it a human being and not a human being)
Three simple questions. What is a human, when does a human become a human, and when is it OK to terminate that human?
Since these questions all lead to us needing to define legal parameters, ambiguous and vague answers like "consciousness" do not meet any standard for that law to be enforced.
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 8:59 pm
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:01 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Again. You won't define or determine what the level of development is required to meet your threshold.
I did though,see the bolded part above. In the second trimester when the brain finishes forming I said was a good spot imo to draw the line.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:02 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
100% human. That does not automatically mean that it is vested into certain legal rights.
Wholly shite dude. You really are a monster.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:24 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
and it has a long ways to go before it fully develops
Do you know when a brain is fully developed?
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:25 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
Essentially yes. If somebody is in a car accident for instance and is brain dead then yes their caretaker has the right to pull the tubes. Essentially we have a lifeless body on life support.
How about dementia? Are they sentient?
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:25 pm to BBONDS25
I posted an article that said sometime in the second trimester. I even bolted and quoted the part for you.
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:26 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
I posted an article that said sometime in the second trimester. I even bolted and quoted the part for you.
The brain isn’t fully developed until a decade and a half or more of life
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:29 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
In the second trimester when the brain finishes forming I said was a good spot imo to draw the line.
OK, according to your standard, you believe that it is perfectly acceptable to end the life of a human baby at 12 weeks, 6 days but at 13 weeks, one day later we should make it illegal and that life is now worth protecting?
This seems to be what you are advocating for, so please clarify if I am wrong.
This post was edited on 4/30/23 at 9:30 pm
Posted on 4/30/23 at 9:30 pm to burger bearcat
If that’s when the brain finishes forming then yes that sounds like a reasonable place to me. LikE I’ve said I think three times now.
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