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re: Myth of Robert E. Lee: Legend of Robert E. Lee's heroism and decency is based on fiction
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:07 am to WhiskeyPapa
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:07 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
Well, and Thomas Jefferson.
Who owned and impregnated slaves.
quote:
And Abraham Lincoln.
Who thought blacks and whites could never live harmoniously together.
quote:
"Here comes my friend Douglass," Lincoln said, taking Douglass by the hand."There is no man in the country whose opinion I value more than yours."
and Gen Rbt E. Lee walked to the front of a church to kneel beside a black man who was celebrating his new freedom of being able to worship side by side with whites.
quote:
This is rich.
You are stupid. You think you can sort through historical data and choose what supports your preconceived point, and ignore anything that invalidates your point, all for the sake of 'appearing' to be a better person. You must live a shitty life. I pity you.
Robert E. Lee was a greater, more generous and honorable man than anyone in your ancestry who spawned such a pathetic hack as yourself.
Give it a rest, man. If you had any shame, you'd know what an arse you are making of yourself.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:09 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
We need people who look forward, not backwards.
From the poster who concentrates almost entirely on reconstructing false narratives about events from almost 200 years ago.
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:13 am to Loserman
quote:
Publicly, Lee argued against the enfranchisement of blacks, and raged against Republican efforts to enforce racial equality on the South. Lee told Congress that blacks lacked the intellectual capacity of whites and “could not vote intelligently” and that granting them suffrage would “excite unfriendly feelings between the two races.” Lee explained that “the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.” To the extent that Lee believed in reconciliation, it was between white people, and only on the precondition that black people would be denied political power and therefore the ability to shape their own fate.
Lee wasn't entirely wrong.
I'd need to see a source for that. It sounds very much like Abraham Lincoln's known sentiments about blacks.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:21 am to ChineseBandit58
Thomas Jefferson is not established to have impregnated slaves. It is one of the great idiocies of our time that it is accepted as common fact.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:25 am to Bench McElroy
You blaspheme, heretic.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:28 am to Bench McElroy
quote:
But despite his ability to win individual battles, his decision to fight a conventional war against the more densely populated and industrialized North is considered by many historians to have been a fatal strategic error.
But even if one conceded Lee’s military prowess
So we'd like to argue that he wasn't a great military leader on top of our character hit piece, but we really can't. But we'll make a half-hearted attempt anyway.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 8:29 am to Bench McElroy
quote:
Lee told Congress that blacks lacked the intellectual capacity of whites
So he held the same views as Lincoln and most people of his age?
Posted on 6/5/17 at 9:13 am to the808bass
quote:
Robert E. Lee was also against gay marriage.
So was MLK
Posted on 6/5/17 at 9:48 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
There is no proof of that story.
It comes from at least two different sources. One close to the event and another reflecting on the event in 1905.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 9:53 am to Bench McElroy
Robert E. Lee does have some pretty great quotes, this is one of my favorites:
“The march of Providence is so slow and our desires so impatient; the work of progress so immense and our means of aiding it so feeble; the life of humanity is so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often see only the ebb of the advancing wave and are thus discouraged. It is history that teaches us to hope.”
“The march of Providence is so slow and our desires so impatient; the work of progress so immense and our means of aiding it so feeble; the life of humanity is so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often see only the ebb of the advancing wave and are thus discouraged. It is history that teaches us to hope.”
Posted on 6/5/17 at 9:54 am to RollTide1987
quote:
There is no proof of that story.
It comes from at least two different sources. One close to the event and another reflecting on the event in 1905.
There is no credible source for that story.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 9:57 am to Revelator
quote:
Lee told Congress that blacks lacked the intellectual capacity of whites
So he held the same views as Lincoln and most people of his age?
Lincoln supported the vote for black soldiers.
Bue bye Marse Bobbie.
"Privately, according to the correspondence collected by his own family, Lee counseled others to hire white labor instead of the freedmen, observing “that wherever you find the negro, everything is going down around him, and wherever you find a white man, you see everything around him improving. In another letter, Lee wrote “You will never prosper with blacks, and it is abhorrent to a reflecting mind to be supporting and cherishing those who are plotting and working for your injury, and all of whose sympathies and associations are antagonistic to yours. I wish them no evil in the world—on the contrary, will do them every good in my power, and know that they are misled by those to whom they have given their confidence; but our material, social, and political interests are naturally with the whites.”
Publicly, Lee argued against the enfranchisement of blacks, and raged against Republican efforts to enforce racial equality on the South. Lee told Congress that blacks lacked the intellectual capacity of whites and “could not vote intelligently” and that granting them suffrage would “excite unfriendly feelings between the two races.” Lee explained that “the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.” To the extent that Lee believed in reconciliation, it was between white people, and only on the precondition that black people would be denied political power and therefore the ability to shape their own fate.”
LINK
This post was edited on 6/5/17 at 10:51 am
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:16 am to WhiskeyPapa
From Lincoln's Speech, Sept. 18, 1858.
"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making VOTERS or jurors of negroes, NOR OF QUALIFYING THEM HOLD OFFICE, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any of her man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
he pretty much agreed with devil abe on the subject of negro's but you knew that.
i'ts called presentism son, it's the attempt to hold historical figures to current social norms and morality and it's a fallacy.
"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making VOTERS or jurors of negroes, NOR OF QUALIFYING THEM HOLD OFFICE, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any of her man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
he pretty much agreed with devil abe on the subject of negro's but you knew that.
i'ts called presentism son, it's the attempt to hold historical figures to current social norms and morality and it's a fallacy.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:17 am to WhiskeyPapa
"Lee is a pivotal figure in American history worthy of study. Neither the man who really existed, nor the fictionalized tragic hero of the Lost Cause, are heroes worthy of a statue in a place of honor. As one Union veteran angrily put it in 1903 when Pennsylvania was considering placing a statute to Lee at Gettysburg, “If you want historical accuracy as your excuse, then place upon this field a statue of Lee holding in his hand the banner under which he fought, bearing the legend: ‘We wage this war against a government conceived in liberty and dedicated to humanity.’”
To describe this man as American hero requires ignoring the immense suffering for which he was personally responsible, both on and off the battlefield. It requires ignoring his participation in the industry of human bondage, his betrayal of his country in defense of that institution, the battlefields scattered with the lifeless bodies of men who followed his orders and those they killed, his hostility towards the rights of the freedmen and his indifference to his own students waging a campaign of terror against the newly emancipated. It requires reducing the sum of human virtue to a sense of decorum and the ability to convey gravitas in a gray uniform."
LINK
That article blows up the myth of Lee, and rightly so.
To describe this man as American hero requires ignoring the immense suffering for which he was personally responsible, both on and off the battlefield. It requires ignoring his participation in the industry of human bondage, his betrayal of his country in defense of that institution, the battlefields scattered with the lifeless bodies of men who followed his orders and those they killed, his hostility towards the rights of the freedmen and his indifference to his own students waging a campaign of terror against the newly emancipated. It requires reducing the sum of human virtue to a sense of decorum and the ability to convey gravitas in a gray uniform."
LINK
That article blows up the myth of Lee, and rightly so.
This post was edited on 6/5/17 at 10:24 am
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:18 am to Bench McElroy
What is the Atlantic? Is this some revisionist history website?
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:20 am to UnwashedVol
You guys fall for this liberal troll's shtick every time.
Note that he posts some liberal talking point or article without comment and never posts again.
Don't fall for it.
Note that he posts some liberal talking point or article without comment and never posts again.
Don't fall for it.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:34 am to ChewyDante
quote:
So we'd like to argue that he wasn't a great military leader on top of our character hit piece, but we really can't.
He wasn't.
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:36 am to Bench McElroy
quote:
granting them suffrage would “excite unfriendly feelings between the two races.”
I think the article is BS, but if you look at today's world, there is no way you cannot accept this little nugget as factual, regardless of who said it and why.
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:44 am to tedmarkuson
quote:
that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making VOTERS or jurors of negroes
1858.
Executive Mansion Washington D.C.
March 13, 1864
Hon. Michael Hahn
My dear Sir:
I congratulate you on having fixed your name in history as the first—free—state Governor of Louisiana. Now you are about to have a Convention which, among other things, will probably define the elective franchise. I barely suggest for your private consideration, whether some of the colored people may not be let in—as, for instance, the very intelligent, and especially those who have fought gallantly in our ranks. They would probably help, in some trying time to come, to keep the jewel of liberty within the family of freedom. But this is only a suggestion, not to the public, but to you alone.
Yours truly
A LINCOLN
1864
Posted on 6/5/17 at 10:46 am to ChineseBandit58
Thomas Jefferson didnt frick his slave. she denied it, her kids denied it, it wasnt until later when the family wanted fame that they made the claim.
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